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Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:11 am

I got some critique on my drive last year and it immediately had a huge impact on the accuracy and distance of my drive. In May this year I was consistently throwing line drives 120 meters around 400' and more and throwing big distance high turnover shots I was getting my Champ Bosses and Star destroyers out to 140 meters (not every throw!) I then thought to myself, oooh I want a bit more distance, started trying different things and have in the last couple of months shot my form to pieces!

I have tried going right back to basics and trying to rediscover what I did last year that was so succesful and I think I'm starting to get back on the right track again now. Below is some video from 2 weeks back right at the worst point my driving has been for a year, I was struggling to get over 90 meters at this stage (about 300') Please can you see if there is anything obvious in this that you are seeing that has thrown me out. I think a large problem has been getting my weight over the disc. With my longer turnover high drives I think I have been having a tendency to shift the weight backwards and I have taken this into the line drives which have gone to pieces (i've still been able to throw long drives on a high turnover line) . Getting the weight forward is certianly helping and last night I was throwing line drives out to 110 meters again, but not with the same accuracy and consistency as before.

I will take some more video shortly.

Side on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myAmWO6ceHU



From behind (different throws from the side on ones)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TTXj_W7ndo
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Re: Help!

Postby JR » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:20 am

It is good that you're moving so slowly which would sap D big time if your form were right. It's a bit wonky now. You're throwing anny all the time because you plant the right foot so far left. You have a huge strong arming tendency. Move the right arm with so loose muscles that you can barely keep the disc aligned correctly until you're at the right pec. From there starting to accelerate with less than 80 % until about 20 cm short of the arm being straight where you really accelerate hard and pound the hammer. See incomplete sekrets thread and super sekret tekniques thread for explanation.

You don't have any moving of the hips left of standing at attention AKA neutral position in the reach back nor do you have hip explosion twisting the hips right of neutral while throwing. That's the second largest power generator in a throw and you're missing out completely. The largest power generator your legs leave you weight back to neutral instead of leaning forward when the disc rips out. Your heart should be as close to the target as your right knee then. The left knee should be straight which shows that you really need to push harder with the left leg. That helps in getting the weight forward. Keeping the left leg in the ground until the disc ahs ripped gives a little more power but aids in sideways accuracy and repeatability. Alternatively you could do the Feldy left leg kick to the right that can be seen also in masterbeatos vids on Youtube.

The shoulders also miss turning both ways reach back and rip farther to the sides than the hips. You don't have a pause in the body rotation toward the target. That is reach back 180 degrees away from the target or more should start with a mellow turn to torso 90 degrees left of the target and pause ever so slightly so that you can get the throwing arm moved from reach back to disc by the right pec with elbow far closer to the target than the right side.

When you've corrected your form adding speed to the steps will also help nicely. Don't overdo the speed just yet. I'd keep the speed in these vids as long as you've corrected the form issues. Adding speed should be done slowly checking that your form doesn't suffer from added speed.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:04 am

That pretty much sums up what I thought having watched these.
Its the pause mid throw thats gone completely looking at this. That was definitely there earlier this year and isn' something i had realied had drifted out. My elbows not punching towards the target but just pulling around the body. Pretty horrible all round, no wonder i'm struggling for distance and accuracy at the moment!

It was speed added too quickly which destroyed my form! Think this led back to strongarming it and forgetting to use my body properly. When I was throwing well there was no effort at all.

Will work on these things and then post some more videos when throwing better again. Haven't done anything from the Super SEkret technique yet as have the last couple of tournaments on the British Tour coming up and want to get through these before starting something completely new over the winter.
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Re: Help!

Postby JR » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:53 am

Don't you think you could improve fast because you know what to change. How much worse could it get? I'd start sooner rather than later to relearn what you already know about execution of the throw.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:40 am

Not for the time being - what you've given me above is great as i wanted confirmation that I was on the right lines with what had gone wrong with it and can now give me a few things to work on (quite a few things!) whilst there was a eureka moment last year, it took a good nine months of practice to really solidify it into something I felt confident with, and it was thrown out completely in one tournament on a course that had very uneven slippery tee pads, leading to a complete distruction of the drive back in February which took a couple of months to rectify, I then built it back up again to its peak in May before another tournament playing off earth tees and an eagerness to get just alittle more distance ruined it again. It seems I can take months to get it right and then destroy it within the course of a weekend!! Does anyone else find this or is it just me? :cry:

As i said I'm already throwing better again than these videos - they were the worst i've been in a few years, discs were slipping out of my hand later on in this session and going 50 meters, I was turning everything over, worm burning stuff, loads of things I hadn't done since I very first started playing (these drives were right at the start of the seesion and were proabbly the best of the day - believe it or not, it got worse :shock: ). I'll post some more when I'm at least clearing a football pitch again!
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Re: Help!

Postby JR » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:37 am

I too get old form problems back every season While I'm trying to push forward. The problem of pushing forward and learning by yourself for the first years learning bad habits.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:48 am

That's the problem I have over here! When it comes to questions of form and technique there is only one person in this country who I would really trust to analyse what I'm doing and give me advice on it, and unfortunately he lives over 100 miles away, the rest here can either just naturally do it and have never thought about how they do it, or the majority just don't throw very far! There are a terrible amount of strongarmers in the UK even in the ranks of the good players. I don't suppose any of the scandinavians fancy a UK holiday at some point :D
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Re: Help!

Postby JR » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:38 am

There were some Finns at the BO this year and didn't Camilla Jernberg (SWE) won the FPO? So there are Scandinavian players in the UK at elast once a year but it's not a matter of nationality anyway. Knowledge is out there for anyone to get. Or should we say at least here at DGR :-) But what's up with not talking to the British guru(s)? You're bound to meet each other at some competition.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:36 am

JR wrote:But what's up with not talking to the British guru(s)? You're bound to meet each other at some competition.


There are hardly any!!! Derek Robins is a friend and the local pro and top player in the UK, he has no idea how to explain anything, he just throws! (I don't think he would be too insulted to read that :D ) Thats the problem with most of the top players here they can throw but don't necessarily know the mechanics or be able to see what someone else is doing wrong. Some of the advice I have heard at times from the top guys is quite frankly terrible and just wrong, the amount that tell me more spin = less stability frightens me. There are some of the London guys that are good and I will hopefully be picking some brains at the next comp of a couple of guys in particular, Bruce who sometimes posts on here is very good at explaining things, definitely the best I have spoken to - one half hour session has completely changed my apporach game and knocked loads of shots off each round. The problem is I so very rarely get to see them that I develop bad habits in between whilst trying stuff out by myself. Normally at comps I don't like messing aruond with my form as I'm a massive confidence/feel player If I change one thing and dont feel comfortable it can unravel my entire game.

The difference in knowledge bases in countries can be seen quite clearly. We have a couple of brothers over here who have now been playing for a couple of years, both are in fairness naturally athletic, both though were trained in Sweden, 6 months after picking up a disc one of them came third overall in his first British Tour event (playing int am which he won by about 50 shots!) It was an outstanding achievement and one that I don't think has been replicated by anyone picking up a disc in the UK and being trained here. I've been coaching new people at our course using the techniques picked up from this website (don't worry its more do as I say rather than do as I do!) and the improvements in the first few months of our new players compared to those that have learnt themselves is huge, I just need someone over here that can analyse me as I throw and help me put the theory into practice in my own game again, I'm hoping some of the Londoners that read this will take it as their cue to call :wink:

I unfortunately had to bail on the British Open this year through lack of funds which was a great shame, would have been great to have played.
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Re: Help!

Postby JR » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:06 am

Neal has some time here under his belt and I have given him a critique of his form but I don't remember seeing him posting in ages. Derek certainly knows how to throw -he's a hall of famer. Watching him might help. I don't know if Lloyba from this forum is going back to The UK and when. But it might not hurt to ask him if he's around and if you can meet. He's a Finn but we haven't really spoken with each other so I don't know how good he's at instructing. He throws quite far though, he's athletic. Quite so.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:51 am

Yep, Neal is the Bruce I was talking about above(his nickname) He's getting very good now, probably 2nd best in the UK on recent form, giving Del a run for his money in his old age! Probably won't get a chance to see Neal till late Autumn when our clubs meet at Nationals and if I'm still throwing badly by then I might have burnt my discs :evil:

Derek knows how to throw, but doesn't know how he throws if that makes any sense, he's just naturally very good and spent years learning by trial and error by himself - he doesn't throw very far though, when I was driving well I was consistently out driving him( not for the last couple of months though, as you can see in the video!) . I work for Del at his course some evenings so play with him all the time although he's over in france at Euros at the moment, how come the Finnish mafia isn't there filming this week?

I went out last night in monsoon conditions before working at the course eager to work on my form. I was gripping the discs as you suggested (probably over the top actually as they were almost falling out of my hand actually hanging towards the ground on the reach back.) I didn't think I would be able to throw like this at all but was hitting the majority between 300 and 330 feet, I threw some absolute skyrockets as well ( I was struggling to get control of the nose angle with the loose grip) and these surprised me by still going the best part of 300' . For the first time ever I was really feeling a rip at the release and almost pain on my fingertips and seemed to be getting more spin on the discs than I had before which was encouraging. I certinaly wasn't getting my arm through as quick as I used to but it felt like a great platform to work from. How much extra distance do you think you get on a hot sunny dry day as opposed to a still overcast pouring with rain day, will it add 5% to your throw 10%? If so then yesterday was a really successful break through again. I always feel like I get more distance on hot sunny days but not sure by what amount it will affect the drives comparatively.
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Re: Help!

Postby JR » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:39 am

Sweet gig you have there! Rain vs suny depends on many issues. Mostly about what your distance limiting factors are so the results vary from day to day for one person and much among persons. I don't lose 5 % distance on rainy days if only I can get a decent run up without slipping. Long autumn and spring so the UK should be even better for learning to drive in wet conditions :-) Much of lack of distance loss probably comes from a fairly non restricting rain coat.

Lcgm8 has just undergone surgery and we knew it before hand so it would've been just me because mafa couldn't make it. We have bigger plans for next year so I'm saving up money. Work is hectic now so it made sense to skip this one and gather money instead of spending it. I don't know where I got the idea (their home page?) that the European championships would be filmed by some other crew arranged by the organizers. Our participation would've been overkill and unnecessary.

Don't burn your discs!!! I don't mean to keep the disc so loose that you lose the angles but if holding the disc near vertical and pulling even closer, like Dave Greenwell and Finnish Champ 2008 Joonas Hynönen do until just past the right pec, go for it if you get comfortable. And don't lose accuracy or consistency. Joonas throws 150 m despite power generation limiting issues he has suffered from.

I don't wonder about the nose angle trouble early in the training. I haven't heard of anyone merging disc vertical style with Chris Voigts arm away from the body at the reach back at somewhat under the arm pit (disc aligned horizontally). That may be only way to get even looser arm muscles giving the most violent acceleration late in the arm pull. With even more difficult execution of the throw. I would think that once you correct everything you will have gained more arm speed back. If not surpassing your old arm speed.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:03 am

Think the drive is back!!! Thanks JR.

Nose angle issues seem to have ironed out now after working on them for the last couple of weeks. Had a British tour event last weekend where I shot on sunday by far my best ever tournament round, going round under par for the first time in tournament play at a course which has consistently bitten me badly in the past with the winds a blowing. (the saturday rounds were rubbish unfortunately so i didn't quite make the final!)

It felt really good and consistent, my putting was rubbish but parked 5 holes for birdies from the drive and missed 2 birdies from 12' with two center of the chain spitouts as well, if only I could putt now! Have built my own basket and bought a piece of land so that should be achieved over the next few months.

It was just such a pleasure to be able to fall back and rely on my drive firing again.
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Re: Help!

Postby JR » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:02 pm

Congratulations for the driving! Have you done the Discraft putting confidence program?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help!

Postby rhatton2 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:10 am

The Mark Ellis one?

Its sort of how I've practiced for a year or so and has definitely made a big difference, its what I try to get any new starters at our course to do. I will start of short and make all the putts at that range then move back a meter after 4 from 4, if I miss one I move forward a meter, Furthest I have ever got to is 10 meters so I'm not great! I don't tend to miss by much though so its almost always a drop in 2nd. Up to now I've never really focused that much practice time on putting though which I know is a cardinal sin! I've tried many different styles over the years but have now settled on one I feel fairly comfortable with. I generally hit metal now up to about 8 meters but its often the sides of chains so they drop out rather than stick on the center pole.

Now I've got some space in the back garden, i've also bought 4 wizards of the same weight so have the same disc to putt with, and have built my own basket with variable chain size and height from the ground, the plan is to practice hard over the winter and get good.
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