I only drive 430' with my ION

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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby zj1002 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:56 am

I actually only tried it with my drivers. Basically every shot come out nose down, on a low fast line
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby JR » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:11 pm

zj1002 wrote:I actually only tried it with my drivers. Basically every shot come out nose down, on a low fast line


Is that the way you normally throw with your normal grip? Nose down low.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby zj1002 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:33 pm

No I usually have a high pull, hyper flip style. There was significantly more nose down than usual. I wasn't throwing for distance. One of my problems with my normal grip is I can't keep my wrist loose if I try to keep the nose down. I think this "trigger" takes away some of that tightness until I need it
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby JR » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:54 pm

The index under the wing can ease up tension in the forearm especially with wide rimmed drivers. But what does the trigger pull mean for you? Do you slide the index finger to the usual place during the throw? If you do how late do you put the index finger to the rim?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby zj1002 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:32 pm

In limited tests, index finger completely off disc until after I had accelerated past the right pec and started the chop. When my body got lined up I pit my index finger under the rim and gripped. Which in my mind is like pulling a trigger when I have my target in my sights. I am going to play with it after work today. Might even get a video up. I will have more details tonight when I can have more time to analyze the pros and cons
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby zj1002 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:01 pm

Basically here is a run down of what I was doing tonight(shot -4 using this technique)

1. Reach back was at about left shoulder(chest high), index finger off the rim. My wrist/hand feels very lose, yet i still maintain a solid grip with the other fingers. My basic grips are a fan grip and a modified 3 finger stacked power grip(index, middle, pinky on rim; ring stacked on pinky/middle)

2. usual x-step and pulled through as I ended the x-step. still kept index finger off the rim as I got the pull to my right pec.

3. tried to accelerate at the right pec, punching the elbow out out in front of me and focusing on keeping the nose down. this is where I start to feel the disc pivot, or it could just be a slip from not having the index finger.

4. as the elbow and wrist start to uncoil this is where I "pulled the trigger" and brought the index finger under the rim as hard as I could. in some cases I could feel the disc, pivot off my palm and other fingers(non-index/thumb), and then pivot again off my index as my wrist uncurled.

There were a few grip locks and sweeping flat hyzers that were definitely not intended. I do seem to have a bit more distance, but didn't get to a field before dark to see if that was true. The biggest difference was dead nuts accuracy when I clamped the index finger at the proper moment. This is basically allowing me to slow my shoulders down, get the nose down, and see my target before I am ripping it.

I could see myself having some issues if I don't time the "trigger" properly. I did not have any early releases or severe nose up shots, which had been a problem the past 3-4 months. I am not sure if this is something I will keep in my throw, but I think it can help me feel the weight of the disc and is a great learning tool.

I want to try this on some distance lines tomorrow. add a longer reach back, and drop my pull down below my chest to create some more leverage. hopefully I get some positive results
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby JR » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:17 am

The index finger trigger pull motion has momentum going into the pinch so it has the potential to be stronger than a static grip. If the timing coincides with the added grip strength requirement. Grip locks from added pinch power or timing problems are definitely in the cards. This does not fall in the category of keep it simple :-) On the other hand not throwing arm static gripping with the index finger under the wing gets the hand more down the standard finger on the rim. Partially from the size of the index finger not allowing the disc to stay down and partially from the tightening of the forearm muscles which shortens the muscles pulling up the wrist.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby jubuttib » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:23 am

I've been doing this for a while, sort of. I don't really move it outside the rim, but the pressure of my forefinger is so light it might as well be off the disc completely. For me it helps with relaxing my grip and focusing on my "back" fingers (the 70/30 thing).
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby JR » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:31 am

The best way for me so far starts out at very little effort to say the least with the grip strength so it's difficult for me to gauge how much effort there is back vs front initially. Because the disc needs to pivot and by definition the rear of the grip ain't in contact with the disc any more at the latter stages of disc pivot. Where I really apply finger power. And then the effort is with the middle and especially index finger. I would characterize my index finger pressure for almost all the throw as inconsequentially light. The skin doesn't really compress until late in the throw and even then it's the weight of the disc from acceleration first. I don't think I get real momentum going on compared to index finger under the wing.

I don't know why I have such a hard time pushing down with the thumb. It may be a lack of power or a subconscious protection of the injured parts in the arm.I only know that I can pinch very hard with the index finger and the middle finger compared to pushing down with the thumb. There are few discs shallow enough for me to use leverage of the thumb with the Jenkins grip. And those that are flat enough do not need it or don't fly well enough to be usually applicable. My hands are too tiny and the fingers too short.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby rehder » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:35 pm

IMHO grip is a very small component of long throws
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby JR » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:06 pm

Unless there's something wrong with it. For me the thumb strength seems to be nil :-( Annies demand the most grip strength for me and I do get early slips with those especially when I'm tired. Which is often when I play. When I get exhausted I get slips in other throws and even putts grr.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby jubuttib » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:25 am

rehder wrote:IMHO grip is a very small component of long throws

And the only difference in how my form feels when I throw 320' or 420' is how my grip felt when the disc slipped/ripped out. To each his own.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby zj1002 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:48 am

there definitely has been something wrong with my grip. Booter pointed this out one day when I was throwing roc's 350+ but couldnt keep the nose down on my drivers. This "trigger pull" isn't something I will keep in my throw, it is just a practice tool. I will probably start my warmup's using this to get the feel going.

I slightly agree with Rehder about the distance thing, only because this isn't really increasing my current distance. It has added maybe 10-15ft but nothing I haven't thrown before(450ish pro destroyer). This has added a lot of accuracy, it has shown me how to slow my shoulders down and see my target before I rip it out. Based on talks with local pros and this forum, my next level of distance will come when I add a longer reach back, drop my shoulder/leverage, and use my hips. In my practice with reach/shoulder/hips I was having early pull and nose up issues, so I think fixing this detail can help me in the long run.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby zj1002 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:20 pm

ok so this thread is no longer about Jussi and his damn Ion bombs...im going to keep dumping info about this trigger pull as I progress. there will be JR type walls of text, forgive me.

started throwing with distance power using a variation of this today. only threw putters and roc's. I gotta say it has lead to a nice increase in distance and accuracy. I kept the finger losely on the rim (more like Jussi) and focused on slowing my shoulders down and dropping the front one for leverage. I think the biggest thing I have gained from this grip is timing. Wizards were going 320-330 with pretty good accuracy. The place I was throwing the putters only went about 330ft before hitting thick brush, so I wasn't throwing any risking drives. I think I can get these a lot farther. I have seen Beto write about simply throwing higher for more distance, well I see now what he means. The short throws 230-300ft where short because they were so close to the ground and simply ran out of room. I am able to keep the nose down much easier while still maintaining a pull at upward angle that doesnt simply hyzer out. I have only had this type of throwing happen to me on those "good" days, not for 4 days in a row. My roc's were going 370-400 on a slightly downhill slope, but it is the longest(open) field I have access to atm. This distance isn't anything new, but it was something I was only reaching on that "good" day every couple weeks. This thursday I will be hitting up the disc nation driving range for a couple hours(get ready Leopard) and will be throwing drivers. I am driven to practice driving like crazy now and not lose what I think is about to be my biggest break through in a while. I still have some occasional nose up drives but the difference is now I can feel exactly what I did wrong the second I release the disc. This "trigger pull" may not be good for everyone, in fact for me it was more of a eureka moment for bringing my entire throw into focus.
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Re: I only drive 430' with my ION

Postby jubuttib » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:32 pm

Feel free, though it might be more useful if you posted that stuff over at the technique section.
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