Religion: Is it cool?

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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby uNicedmeMan » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:07 am

I'm hip to what both of you (DS and jubuttib) said and I agree that the scientific method doesn't try to pin anything down as absolute truths. I guess what I intended to say was that science (like religion) is a powerful thing that can limit one's thinking if misunderstood.

On religion, I agree that good morals and codes of conduct can be extracted and put to good use. I also think that there are some folks that cannot function on not "knowing" how they came to be, why they are here, what to do, etc... and for those folks religion can serve a purpose.

The danger in religion is it's ability to divide human beings often resulting in genocide. When you believe in something 100%, anyone who doesn't agree with you is inherently wrong and that's the end of discussion. Attitudes like this make it impossible for us to collaborate as a whole and move forward with the best interest of everyone in mind. I lump religion in with racism/sexism and a bunch of other isms. Recently I've been thinking that strong ties to the philosophy of your family / heritage is limiting in a similar way (read as: my daddy always voted this way and hated these people and that's exactly what I plan to do).
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Leopard » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:25 am

You guys do remember that, due to my own self-importance, I will try to put a stop to this religious discussion. It's because I feel DGR should be just like I want it. Again, self importance. This is established fact according to Bradley "the perceptive arguer" Walker

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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Frank Delicious » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:28 am

I just checked and anything can taken to the extreme or misused for selfish purposes. Welp I'm outta here.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby jubuttib » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:30 am

garublador wrote:So people can do good things without religion, but the bad things are all forced on people by religion. That's a really illogical argument.
I'm not saying people can't be evil without religion, that would be absurd. I just find it hard to support any ideology that tells me that people aren't equally important because of either their race, age, nationality, sex, sexual preferences, religious views, age, that supports the spread of AIDS by denying some of the best ways (not perfect mind you) to help control it, that can't make it's mind up whether it is meant to love everyone equally or kill everyone that doesn't think like you do (and there are a lot of examples of this in all the Abrahamic religions, eg. Exodus 22:20), that says that the only reason I must do or not do things like eat pork or not do any work at all on Sundays (lest I be killed, Exodus 31:12-15) is that a single book tells me that if I disobey the all loving, all forgiving god will throw me to hell, that the only way I can be a good person of decent morals is if I accept the deity du jour as my personal savior.

People are evil enough already, it doesn't help that they can get encouragement from a higher authority (ie. religion) to do those bad things. And people do really horrible things in the name of religion. I've heard terrible tales from atheist Americans about how they're treated by religious people. I'd rather people do bad shit because they're just stupid and evil by nature, than otherwise nice people getting stupid ideas from "high authorities".

And when some people say how not all laws in the bible meant to be taken literally, let me ask you this: Where do you draw the line? How do you decide which parts of the bible should "really" apply in your life? From a religious stand point the command "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is equally valid as "a woman who is raped must marry her rapist" (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). You can't just arbitrarily dismiss either one, without thinking about the subject yourself and making up your own mind about the subject (which is how atheists and other non-religious people come up with their morals. They think about them). People usually make the right choices in at least the more extreme cases, which leads me to believe they'd to this even without religion.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby jubuttib » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:32 am

Jerrod wrote:No the point is not that good stuff would happen regardless. The point is that religion is not needed for good things to happen. Good and bad (or evil) things will always happen regardless of religion or science. The problem with religion is that it provides an extremely convenient tool for people, especially uneducated people, to be manipulated into doing horrible things regardless of what the religion says.
Yes, exactly.

EDIT: On top of all the other suggestions I've seen, I'd like to point you to The Science of Discworld II: The Globe, which has some pretty fascinating insights about the role of religion in developing societies, conflicts between religion and science, etc. And it's also very funny.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Frank Delicious » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:41 am

Yes please refer to the book The Science of Discworld II which deals with heavy insights into religion and how it intertwines with emergent societies through the use of time traveling wizards.

I think the wizards are an allegory
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby discspeed » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:46 am

I've seen behavior scientists take it to the extreme and use it to give them permission to be totally selfish and not care about the well being of society or the emotions of individuals. It allowed them to use people however they saw fit...basically gave them license to be sociopathic. Most of these guys were old professors who used their status to fuck college girls and cast them off. It's probably one of the main reasons I didn't pursue a graduate degree in behavioral science (at least at that school).
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby jubuttib » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:48 am

Frank Delicious wrote:Yes please refer to the book The Science of Discworld II which deals with heavy insights into religion and how it intertwines with emergent societies through the use of time traveling wizards.

I think the wizards are an allegory

Just because the book has wizards in it doesn't mean that Ian and Jack don't know what they're talking about. =)
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Frank Delicious » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:50 am

Using a book with time traveling wizards to tackle complicated problems does make me question their intelligence though.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby garublador » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:51 am

Jerrod wrote:it provides an extremely convenient tool for people, especially uneducated people, to be manipulated into doing horrible things regardless of what the religion says.
Check it out. I can change one word and use the same logic to say that religion is a good thing.

It provides and extremely convenient tool for people, especially uneducated people, to be manipulated into doing compassionate things regardless of what the religion says.

Religion isn't required for anything to happen. Some people will be jerks and some will be awesome no matter what. Dumb people will follow jerks and awesome people no matter what. It's just not a logical argument. The only thing knocking that out of balance is that religion actually teaches people to do the good stuff.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby jubuttib » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:55 am

They've both released plenty of books apart from the Science of Discworld series, it's just a novel approach. I'm not saying it is the most rigorous text available, but it is a fascinating read. And they themselves don't write anything about the wizards. =P
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Frank Delicious » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:55 am

Nothing involving Discworld is interesting. Stop spreading lies.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby jubuttib » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:56 am

garublador wrote:Check it out. I can change one word and use the same logic to say that religion is a good thing.

It provides and extremely convenient tool for people, especially uneducated people, to be manipulated into doing compassionate things regardless of what the religion says.

Religion isn't required for anything to happen. Some people will be jerks and some will be awesome no matter what. Dumb people will follow jerks and awesome people no matter what. It's just not a logical argument. The only thing knocking that out of balance is that religion actually teaches people to do the good stuff.
It equally teaches people to do bad stuff, this is what I'm against.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby sunspot » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:58 am

We have to ask ourselves, "Do I really want answers to my questions?" or "Am I simply stating my grievances without offering any explanation from the other side?"

Do we really want to listen?
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Frank Delicious » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:59 am

Technically religious leaders teach people to do bad stuff. Most religious primary sources are pretty open to interpretation. That is why there are a million different branches of all major Abrahamic religions
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