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Postby Smyith » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:36 pm

is there an offical state religion? NO!

therefore there is a seperation of church and state b/c it is unlawful to make any policies that cater to a specific religion. also, where does it state in any of those writings which god? the christian god? muslim god? jewish god? now i know you are gonna say that it implies the christian god but it doesnt say that so you cant interpret it that way.

just like under the treaty of guadeloupe hildago (mexixan war) we can never make an offical language. the fore fathers made sure to keep a seperation.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:04 am

Mr. History Major many of the original states originally had official state religions. Tis true.
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Postby Smyith » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:25 am

Jwt4412 wrote:Mr. History Major many of the original states originally had official state religions. Tis true.


colonies did; not states. theres a difference
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Postby Jwt4412 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:53 am

Last post on the subject.

Virginia had an official state religion on the books until 1850.

Nine of the original states had official state religions on the books at the signing of the Constitution. Many of them kept the official religion language for over twenty years.

Your friend was wrong, you should not have started a political thread on this board.

I feel silly that I even participated.
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Postby Smyith » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:08 am

Jwt4412 wrote:Last post on the subject.

Virginia had an official state religion on the books until 1850.

Nine of the original states had official state religions on the books at the signing of the Constitution. Many of them kept the official religion language for over twenty years.

Your friend was wrong, you should not have started a political thread on this board.

I feel silly that I even participated.


and thats why i tried to end it before it got to this point. anyway i talked with my history teachers on the subject and in a way we are both wrong. but there is still no offical religion and there has always existed in the USA a seperation b/w church and state (state doesn't literally mean a "state" it means government.)
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Postby Bildo » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:42 am

JW, so what are you saying specifically about religion and state soverignty/central government? Many of your points are logical but form no conclusions, you seem lost within the rhetoric of religion...i agree with Smyith that you should try thinking outside the box. But the religious discussion is stupid and useless anyway, its all just an elaborate story created to form ideologies used to brainwash and control us, but thats a whole other argument now isn't it.

To elaborate further on the President's educational follies, i just want to draw attention to the fact that "No Child left Behind" is designed in a way that does not help school districts that perform under the requirements of the program. I was lucky enough to experience this first hand when i was student teaching. I was placed into a district that was under the requirements to receive federal aid, not only was this district not allowed to receive federal aid but they were actually docked a percentage of their budget until they were up to par. Does anyone else see a problem here? So the governement, under the Republicans (not the Democrats FYI), requires a district to meet standards in order to provide aid, if the district doesn't meet the standards it is then scrutinized and degragated further resulting in lower pay for the teachers and administrators until it is brought up to speed. Which brings me into another point about federal educational budget cuts. I attend a university that primarily focuses on teaching, Bush and other state(Rod Blagoavich-R) and federal administators have proposed yet another cut in the university professor's pay, how then do they expect that good teachers will be produced if they refuse to offer decent pay to extremely important educators such as these? Not to mention, on the secondary and primary levels, the proposed plan to eliminate 10 year status by forcing teachers to relocate to different districts? Thats messed up, any intelligent person would see the extreme problems that this will create for the future generations.

Smyith, Fritz, JWwhatever i await your replies.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:08 pm

You have filled my entire computer screen up with - money is the answer.

Money is not the answer.

D.C. schools spend the most per child - where to do they rank?

You also have missed the mission of no child left behind... it is opening the doors for vouchers.

Gov't and Politics are not checkers - they're chess.

The schools that improve or maintain high standards continue to get their money - rewarding success.

Those that don't fail... and nobody will accept failure and the children and their parents will be free to go to alternative school opportunities in the form of vouchers.

And when vouchers are mainstream the dynamics of inner-city politics will change forever. And when vouchers are mainstream the teachers' unions and the parasites that run the NEA will die a very quick political death.

Good Politics is based upon Good Policies. The Dems and their special interest groups made up of poverty pimps, union bosses and education administrators will be pushed aside.

The biggest and best reform that could be added is - no new education job be funded unless that position has direct interaction with students.

And in the end students will have better educations because results will be weighed and measured as a result of No Child Left Behind.

More money and the bigotry of low expectations are not the answers. We have tried that for fifty years.

My son goes to Catholic School - combine my 1800 a year with the diocessee's 3000 a year and you will find that my son is getting a top notch education for 4800 a year. He just tested 93% or better in all of his categories on the standardized tests.

Money ain't the answer.

They spend over 8700 per student in the District 186 schools here in Springfield - want to guess where they ranked?
Last edited by Jwt4412 on Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:30 pm

Bildo,

My comments on religion were only to show that our Forefathers DID NOT do the following...

and another thing religion should not be brought into politics. our forefathers tried to make the point that there needs to exsit a seperation of church and state.


Once I had shown that the Religion in fact existed within the gov'ts of the time in the country, a point that you have stated that was made logically, no further conclusions were required.
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Postby asimo » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:00 pm

"No Child Left Behind" is named about as appropriately as the "Clean Air Act."

We saw what a privatized America really looks like when hurrican Katrina destroyed the golf coast.

President Bush's approval rating is now tied with Nixon for the all time low, 29%. Just in case I need to say it, Nixon was impeached.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:17 pm

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Postby Smyith » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:53 pm

Jwt4412 wrote:http://realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/bush_ja.html


that was in '04 buddy not now and 39% is bad!

i dont think you know the first thing about education. and yes money is the answer maybe you missed the part bildo tried to make that if they dont met requirements they are charged more money.

and your childs education doesnt cost $4800 you didnt add in how much the church itself is paying so its equal. your child might be fourtante enough to be in the better school in your area due to the teachers. in my area one of the worst schools academiclly is the catholic one.

i think i'll talk with my mon about this and get some straight up facts for you. shes on the state board of education.[/u]
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Postby Jwt4412 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:17 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/po ... 030606.htm

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Bush_Job_Approval.htm

The poll is current - the list started in 2004. If you clicked on the first poll on the list it would have taken you to the Washington Posts very latest poll that has Bush's approval rating at 41%.

A poll that is overweighted to Dems by 7% if you take into account that 37% of the voters last elections say they are dems and 37% who say the are repubs.

The second link would have taken you to the Rasmussen Poll that has bush at 44%... and so on and so on.

So pick your poll or use the averaged poll - it doesn't matter.

And

I know exactly how much my son's education costs. My wife and I are the co-chairs of the PTC of the school.

I pay 1800 the Diocesees pays 3000 - the church is who gets paid and the church then pays the employees of the school.

Of course we fundraise like hell - works out to roughly another 1500 per kid but that is a combination of donations, time and outside sources.

If somebody doesn't attend the parish they are charged 3600.00 but money from the church doesn't go to subsidize my son's tuition - it goes towards Angel Fund Scholarships so others can attend the school.

So 4800 plus 1500 = 6,300 for a fair comparison.

And remember I am still paying to send other peoples' kids to public school.

I can even tell you how much gets spent on playground equipment and copy toner if you need to know.
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Postby Bildo » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:58 pm

Wow...you guys really are bringing up good points. Thank you Smyith for reiterating my point about how schools are charged MORE. I personally don't believe that a policy like that is good for America. If a particular district is forced to decrease teachers pay because of low test scores, how exactly could they expect to attract the caliber of teacher that is nessesary to fix the problem. All the talented teachers will be working for the districts that are the most attractive for them. We need a policy change or we will continue along this vicious cycle. JW about your point with the catholic schools. I attended a Catholic school for 9 years(K-8), personally i feel like i wasn't ready for the transition to high school. Luckily for your son, it sounds like you have found a suitable school. Nationally though, as you might know, funding for private schools is lower then public (especially for primary and secondary). Maybe not in your case, but in most cases, teacher's pay (entry level and 10 year) is much lower (up to 20% lower) in private schools. How do they expect to attract better teachers. Morality, ethics and religious belief - I just can't buy that.
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Postby Smyith » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:59 pm

Jwt4412 wrote:I know exactly how much my son's education costs. My wife and I are the co-chairs of the PTC of the school.

I pay 1800 the Diocesees pays 3000 - the church is who gets paid and the church then pays the employees of the school.

Of course we fundraise like hell - works out to roughly another 1500 per kid but that is a combination of donations, time and outside sources.

If somebody doesn't attend the parish they are charged 3600.00 but money from the church doesn't go to subsidize my son's tuition - it goes towards Angel Fund Scholarships so others can attend the school.

So 4800 plus 1500 = 6,300 for a fair comparison.

And remember I am still paying to send other peoples' kids to public school.

I can even tell you how much gets spent on playground equipment and copy toner if you need to know.


wel you got me there.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:15 pm

Bildo,

It isn't about money.

Let's try this.

What cost more to make a Toyota Camry or a Chevy Malibu?

Which car is better the Toyata or the Chevy?
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