Push Putt Issues

[Whiz]

I guess when you say "laser putters" JR I assume you mean more of a spin putt style. Correct me if I am wrong. I have not played with any pros that advocate trying to get a pivot around the index/thumb lock when putting although that may be me misinterpreting what you are trying to say.

[JR]

I guess I can be corrected by someone with more knowledge but what I have picked up from Dave Feldberg's description of the push putt is that the index finger should not be controlling the release and you should definitely not be trying to get a pivot around the index/thumb pinch on a putt of this type. I think springing all of the fingers off at the same time is key and have been told by pros who use this style that the index finger should not be touching the flight plate. If that is the case then the pop created by the finger spring should be generated by the pinky, ring and middle fingers combined with the thumb all springing off together. I do not spin putt unless I am outside normal jump putting range and do not consider that style/technique to be at all similar to what is needed in a push putt. I believe that Blake advocates having the pinky against the rim of the disc which I have not had success with. I find a better/more consistent release is obtained with a fan grip with all fingers other than the index touching the flight plate but not the rim of the disc.

I guess when you say "laser putters" JR I assume you mean more of a spin putt style. Correct me if I am wrong. I have not played with any pros that advocate trying to get a pivot around the index/thumb lock when putting although that may be me misinterpreting what you are trying to say.

I do spin putt but not to the extent that one does with drives. I try to throw the disc at the same height without sideways variation to as far as possible without getting too long comebackers if i miss. Unfortunately even Rhynos blow by far at relatively short distances if one forces them to maintain initial altitude. When i get to the range where a blow by would be too much i power down a little and aim a little higher and allow the disc to drop but still try to keep sideways motion to the minimum. At even longer distances i'm forced to adjust sideways aiming too. There's still less guesswork than with push putts.

I start with the palm push. I let the index finger tip be where it is after setting the outermost joint to the wing/rim corner of the disc. I use enough index finger strength to make sure that the disc doesn't slip out early. I don't try to actively pivot the disc unless i'm far from the basket. Have you seen the Champion's Way DVD? Climo said that even push putts have spin on the disc. I'm not trying to hyper spin but the quick acceleration of short arming (in my case later than Blake and masterbeato do it) automatically makes the disc spin a bit. More than the push putt but not by any means hyper spin like in drives. I aim the motions with multiple methods and the last one is the finger spring. I power and partially guide the disc by straightening the index finger toward the aiming point. people have usually had a lot of practice in pointing at things so it can help in accuracy. I straighten the index finger simultaneously with the other fingers.

Pros are that my make rate is the highest that it's ever been in long periods and i rarely get three putts if ever. I get to use the same form to fairly long distances with minimal guesswork and need to aim outside the sweet spot of the basket. Cons are that my later arm acceleration than Blake and Dan means that when i'm playing tired (often) the arm won't straighten fast enough for good D and a clean rip and the wrist flaps to the right after the elbow straightens. Normally the disc would be off the fingers with good acceleration way before the elbow straightens.

[Taylor]

Wanted to bring this back just to share some more findings.

I was fortunate to find this forum and Feldbergs push putt video early on in my disc golf career so I never really had a spin putt. I was pretty good from 25 and in but once I hit 30-40 I really struggled to get it there and after playing some tournaments and watching these spin putters sink a few from 60 feet I was really questioning if the push putt was really the way to go. Well when that same player missed his 10 footer I knew that push putting was still superior.

I just read through this and changed my grip from a fan grip to putting my ring and pinky on the rim and really putting pressure on my palm. It really increases spin rate and allows the push putt to hit a lower line which is really useful when playing in the woods and having low ceilings.

Also, for all of you trying to learn how to push putt. Don't be afraid to spin putt too. Sometime if I have a longer uphill putt I'll spin putt because I feel like it suits the shot better. There is nothing wrong with using both styles of putting. They both have their positives and negatives.

[colombo117]

Yeah, I use a straddle push putt for 10m and in, and then for longer or uphill putts I will spin putt with a more in-line stance. Using both styles to suit the situation is helpful.

[Taylor]

So I've been working with having my pinky and ring finger in the rim and it's really hard for me to get a consistent release.

Are there any push putters out there using a fan grip without any fingers touching the inside rim? If so how do you get the pressure that Feldberg talks about that enables the disc to 'pop' out of your hand and let hit push put from 40 feet?

I've had a little success positioning my thumb closer to the middle of the disc and using the thumb to bring the disc into my hand but I'm not sure if that is the right way to go about it.

I know Nikko uses a fan grip and is a wonderful push putter. Does anybody know what grip Schusterick uses?

[JR]

For Will check out Youtube Channel lcgm8 Tali Open 2011 videos. Push putt shares the need to accelerate the arm forward with the spin putt and it is entirely normal to see players like Climo push putt starting with a bent elbow. Straightening the bend happens with both putting techniques. I spin putt with a fan grip and as long as you have enough pinch power with the index finger you can spin the disc out at the same direction as the rest of the arm is pushing as long as the late acceleration is fast enough and the elbow doesn't extend fully straight before the disc has left. That is crucial. That goes for both styles.

It is easier to get a clean release or a slip in cold and wet weather with the thumb closer to the edge. As long as you get clean releases you can safely keep the thumb inside as long as your power generation is good enough for your needs. Feldberg switches to spin putts at longer distances because the range of push putting is limited and going to 100 % power hurts the accuracy. So going closer to the circle or outside of it might get you into trouble push putting with the thumb close to the center. Only you can find out if that is an issue.

[bfowler]

I've just switched to push putting in the last 3 weeks but I use it from inside about 20 feet or so. Too far outside and i switch to spin putting because i can generate a lot more power that way. But Push putting has really, really helped my inside the circle putting.

The thing that really helped me was realizing exactly how strong a spring you can get with just your finger doing from closed on the disk to open. Think about it like you've just gotten your fingers wet with water you flick the water at someone. Or hold a disk and toss it up with one hand like you're tossing a pizza. That flick of your finger is what you do when you release your disk. It puts just enough spin on the disk to keep it straight.

The swing of your arm without bending your elbow is what generates some power and really aims the shot. That's why not bending it is so important. Try lobbing a basketball with on hand with a bent elbow and with a straight elbow and feel which one feels more accurate.

The best guy I've seen putt is Ricky Wysocki. I can't get over how much power he gets with his push putt. It's amazing.

[jon_boi]

I hate to drag up an old thread, but ive been working on push putt for ages..read all thread,videos...I just cant quite get it working. I'm probably guilty of trying too many new things, but this is the year (note that this is the fourth time "this is the year"

So I'm hoping for comments or advice:

1). Sometimes I throw way nose down and my disc tends to error a few feet right. I usually notice my wrist will nose down as I really try to speed up my arm... My solution has been to nose up with hyzer.

2) finger spring...primarily push with middle finger with most of the pressure on disc between middle and thumb. Fingers opening fast like flicking water. Middle finger pushing forward spin on disc. Not sure but I'm finding my most consistent speed with least flutter rotating my forearm with palm down 45 degrees to towards the sky 45 degrees. Not sure if it should be more like holding a glass of water vertical the whole way.

3) miss really really short putts right. Think five feet. Slow down spring? Arm speed?etc

If somebody can give help id appreciate it. I know I'm more of a reader than contributor so i will dig into my vault or find another a way to thank you ( got a pretty good stash of discs) as well as donate to dgr if i can just become solid. It's entirely possible it may.be in my head but knowing best practices may help me from just tring new things every few days.

Jon

[mark12b]

#1 Try to release when your hand is around the 4:30 position on the disc. Nose-down putts come from a 6:00 release point.

Figure out whatever it takes to get a perfectly flat, wobble-free flight that has some loft to it. Disc angles can come later.

Instead of trying to speed up your arm for more distance, add more weight shift. At the distances where a push/pitch putt is useful, arm speed isn't really a factor. Keep the arm fluid and pay more attention to how body weight + finger spring can make the disc fly.

#2 At the elbow end, the forearm angle should be more like holding a glass of water, but at the wrist end it will be pointing more at the sky (so, some water would pour out the side).

The point of the finger spring is not really to propel the disc, it's to get the fingers off the disc cleanly while controlling the angle. Also I think "finger spring" is sort of a tricky way to get the wrist opening naturally, without over-muscling it. For me, missing right usually means I yanked the wrist. But if I pay attention to "flinging the water" toward the basket, the wrist tends to behave.

That grip sounds more like what you'd use for a spin putt. For a pitch putt, try this:

1. Place putter in the seam of your hand, tucked under the base of the thumb.

2. Place ring and middle finger under the disc in a position that allows you to support the disc flat, without the pinkie, index finger, or thumbtip touching the disc. You've got the base of the thumb on top, and the two supporting points below.

3. Gently grip the rim of the disc between the thumbtip and index finger. Longer putts need a firmer grip.

4. Hold the disc like this in front of your belly button. The disc should be perfectly level, and still mainly supported by the three points from step 2. The base of the thumb should be around 2:00, and the thumbnail will be pointing off to the left.

5. Now lift the disc up to about chin level, and forward a bit -- whatever is comfortable. Be sure to keep it flat! Play with different heights, different amounts of wrist opening, etc., always keeping the disc level. For the actual throw, you'll be lifting it a bit and moving it forward a bit, and the thumbnail will end up pointing directly at the basket. Rehearse this in slow motion, allowing yourself to feel the weight of the disc and how it moves.

Now practice short putts, 10' - 12' or so. The goal is to pop the disc toward the basket, lofting it up to maybe eye level, and keeping it flat for the whole flight. It is possible to do this with very little arm movement and a slight hip-thrust. Try to release the disc close to the body, with a bent elbow.

[JR]

Right misses usually come from bending the elbow a bit and pushing it straight before the discs leaves. After the elbow is straight the wrist flaps right quickly. At 5' you don't need to push fast with the arm it is a miracle one can miss right if the body stance faces the pole and the center of the disc is on the line from the spine to the pole. At 5' you don't need to even bend the elbow you can just lift the arm up a little and you have enough power to move the disc to the basket.

Wrist down is usually caused by wrist being down from neutral and the usual suspect for nose down putts. Try raising the hand up from the wrist as much as possible so that you see the top of the disc throughout the flight. Once you can do that drop the wrist raise angle until you get flat flight.

[jon_boi]

I think mark12b pointed me in the right direction. Now just need to practice.

Donation to DGR made.

Thanks so much,
Jon

[jon_boi]

OK... So I was hoping I would not have to reply, but it's been about 10 weeks... not sure If I have this push putt thing down....I've been trying to sorta do the short arm pitch from Blake's articles but I want think I've not quite got it down.

For a short arm putt... is the idea to sorta use the heal of your hand to push up and out just a little (up being quite important)?

WIth finger spring... am i expecting my fingers to impart spin, or is it more my wrist getting in position such that the heel of my hand ejects the putt out?

I caught myself putting very very slowly and ended very consistently to the right.. I think it's my finger spring sorta flicking the disc to the right and I think i really want the heel of my hand to be the last thing on the disc. when doing this i noticed some discomfort from practicing, such hat the inside of my middle finger by my fingernail was sore because that was pushing the disc out....... i don't want this right? If i had a super slippery disc... could I use this putting style? Would i need to only dry off at the index

I've read all posts and articles, but i just am not sure I have this down conceptually, so looking for confirmation I actually understand what I'm trying to accomplish..

I think i got caught up being a smooth push putter and although my putting is improved pretty substantially, I'm noticing a lot of right misses and I need to clean up how the putter gets out of my hand with some sort of explosiveness.

Thanks as always,
-Jon

[JR]

Yeah the short arm putt needs that push off of the base of the hand. Finger spring is an active straightening of the fingers so that the rim of the disc is pushed forward by the fingers. The wrist does flick forward for half of an inch or more depending on the person even in a push putt. A push putt should not have much or any elbow movement at all. Some (most?) lock the elbow straight from the beginning. In a spin putt a slow elbow acceleration leads to the elbow getting straight before the disc has left and that according to the laws of physics leads to the momentum carrying forward into moving the object that moves with the least amount of resistance=the wrist that moves to the right. A sharp acceleration cures that.

[mark12b]

For right misses, try releasing closer to the body.

[JR]

Absolutely yes which is why a sharp arm forward punch is needed to get the disc out before the elbow straightens out and the momentum goes into flapping the wrist to the right.