Chillaxed Arm?

[jenb]

I started focusing on trying to let my arm go basicially limp and be a whip, and I was having trouble getting it to limply whip and also pass close to the chest in a straight line. It kept wanting to go low and spin around.

Today, I think I figured out that if I raise my hand up above my ear on the reach back and then just let my arm go limp so it drops, and then time it right, I can use my legs and torso to jerk it limply forward across the chest and snap it out straight like a towel.

Is raising the hand up like that and letting it drop limply the thing to do, or am I on the wrong track?

[CatPredator]

You are on the right track, in that you want to be very relaxed in your elbow and whip your forearm out once your elbow gets out ahead of you and stops. However, it sounds like you are going limp in the shoulder and jerking your elbow out ahead of you. That isn't good. You bring the elbow forward in a controlled way to get the disc up to the power zone, you aren't trying to move the disc, or your arm, quickly until your elbow gets all the way out ahead of you and stops. You want your elbow to be relaxed, but your shoulder should be controlled. Your elbow angle collapses as far as feels natural, then it has a big range of motion to swing open and release the wrist at the apex of the arc.

For most people their first powerful throws can result in what feels like grip lock. Really you want to be throwing grip locks but adjust your aim 20 degrees to the left so that it's not grip lock, it's just your regular throw.

[Redisculous]

You should be able to get this to happen without raising your hand so high first. The more variables you add to the throw the less repeatable your motions are.

When I was a kid I used to have this plastic snake toy that was basically a bunch of short plastic tube segments connected by hinges. you could just barely wag the base of the tail and the whole toy would look like it was slithering back and forth. I kind of compare the level of relaxation in my arm to this. I use just enough strength/muscle whatever to guide the disc into the correct position, but I couldn't crack an eggshell with the amount of force my arm muscles are generating on their own.

Getting the disc across the chest, starting the whip of the arm, is really about a series of pauses, shoulders move 90 degrees and stop, upper arm swings forward and stops, elbow chop self-initiates.

If you've done the secret technique drills you've seen this happen with your forearm/wrist. It's the same deal with the shoulders and the upper arm.

Do you throw with much of a reachback? Getting the arm to whip across is really easy. Put your fingertips on your sternum, and basically forget everything past your elbow exists. Twist your torso back and reach back with your elbow (just like a regular throw with a reachback, only your fingertips are on your sternum), the angle between your shoulders and your upper arm should be about 90 degrees. Shift your weight in the direction you would be throwing and just relax. Don't try to twist your hips, don't try to turn your shoulders, jut shift your weight and STOP(not violently so, it should just happen if you are lazy about it) once everything has moved about 90 degrees,hips and shoulders should be square, leave your arm relaxed. Your upper arm should want to continue to hinge out to your right, toward your "target". This will leave you with your elbow "forward" in roughly the right pec position.

Once you can get this to happen with no effort, add your reachback, maybe put a disc in your hand(outside?). All you have to do is exactly what you just practiced, but make a very small effort into keeping the disc close to your body and you'll have a good clean, relaxed "pull" across the chest. If you stay relaxed enough you should even be able to get the elbow chop to initiate with zero arm strength. Don't forget to actually rotate the next 90 degrees when you actually throw though or you'll hurt yourself, trust me I know.

[jenb]

Yes. I'd say I was letting my shoulder go limp too.

I had one of those snakes too, so that's a good explanation I can relate to. I'll see if I can isolate the "limp" movement in a plane like that.

[fanter]

I've pitched a few drives into the ground this way, I think. I still need some shoulder/elbow work :/

[Redisculous]

Hah, I just thought of another fun analogy. The robot. There's that thing when people do the robot dance where they hold their elbows away from their bodies, and let their forearms dangle loosely. It feels like that, but on a horizontal plane instead of a vertical one.

[JR]

Try this feeling based trick: Have you noticed how mammals yawn? Maybe not the whales but who knows. Take in a lot of air to your lungs and raise the arms a bit and yawn exhaling all or most of the air out while allowing the arms to go totally limp and falling down due to gravity. Allow the arms to waggle around freely after the arms swing to dangle straight down from the shoulders. You can do this with a disc in hand too to calibrate the minimum necessary finger pressure to keep the disc in hand. Try to recreate that lack of tension and grip strength at the start, reach back and getting to at least the right pec position. You do need to tense the wrist for snap because a freely back flapping wrist reduces distance. The tensing up should start when the elbow starts to straighten. That is the time when the wrist tries to flap back from the acceleration and direction change of the arm motion.

If you look at Avery Jenkins sidearming here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSZyYAVPbs he gets extra power from the arm dropping due to gravity and the centrifugal motion. It's very easy to detect swinging something heavy. The downside is that there are more moving parts in the throw and that may reduce accuracy as well as repeatability.

[jenb]

Today, I was having a lot of trouble doing the throw across the chest. Accuracy was the main issue.

I chased down some videos of the top women playing, and noticed they all seem to throw more off the hip, and bring the disc around more, rather than in a completely straight line. I tried that with the strong grip and initially had early release problems, so I increased my thumb and index finger pinch pressure to maximum death grip setting and started going further than ever. I know my leopard went 300 on one hole, and my 150 DX valk would have gone farther than that if it could travel in a straighter line. I also seemed to have a lot more control and accuracy.

I know Blake said that coming over the top is probably better for women, but my shoulder joint just doesn't seem to want to work that way. And I recall Blake said that coming in close to the lower body is also good for women, but not as safe in his opinion because of potential damage to the uterus. I'm too old to worry about that though.

I saw one video where Valrie Jenkins was commenting that the technique that's best for guys doesn't work for her, and she had to make adjustments. She's definitely throwing more off the hip and set a record at 485 feet at one point. I understand there's a lady in europe who broke the record by throwing 525, and I can't seem to find any videos of her, so I have no idea what her technique is. I'm going to keep working on Blake's technique, but I plan to work on the hip throw as well. It's closer to what I was doing before, but with a strong grip, chillaxed arms, and max pinch pressure.

[JR]

Niloofar Mosavar Rahmani is the Swede that holds teh current distance record with Millennium Orion LF. Probably Sirius plastic and i think it was mid 160s. I haven't seen her ever nor throwing vids either.

I'd think that the River might be better with more power. Optos have safety margin and GLs tend to flip way more and fade harder. So it's like faster Teebird and Eagle in one mold two different plastics.

I think i was the one warning about hitting the uterus area. The high pull line Blake and i mentioned is the old school way of throwing and as time progresses more and more players of both sexes have started to pull on lower lines. For women all jokes aside breast size is a large factor. Val certainly is at a disadvantage with a choice of available techniques.

Don't knock the high pull line because it does indeed feel tight, clumsy and uncomfortable to all even to those that have used it for years. The comfort level ain't what counts but accuracy, repeatability and distance (snap). What doesn't work in the short term might be better in the long term so i would field train shoulder high and different lower lines for at least half a year to see how things develop. High pull line is unnatural and most don't do that kinds of motions outside of disc golf so it's not familiar. Muscle cells can change from medium fast to fast with practice and it usually takes at least three months to see any changes and six months minimum to see real visible results in performance. That is why pulling on a high line takes time to work. If it is even gonna work better for you in the long term than low lines.

Only you can know what works for you best in the long term after you've tried out all the combinations. That will slow down other progress inevitably because you could be putting during that time. You gotta balance what you want and can do with the time you can use for practice and playing to make the best choice.

If you cut corners now you might limit your best distance potential in the future. No other woman can tell you what's gonna work best for you either because of chest differences etc. Everyone has a different mix of medium fast cells to fast cells in the muscles and flexibility, speed and power in different muscles. That means different strengths and weaknesses to be utilized or avoided. Shooting down weaknesses is always good because that reduces the sources of inconsistencies. My core is too weak so i get hip tilts anny and rarely hyzer when i don't mean to. It gets more common when i tire.

Considering spine to right finger tip is a lever in terms of physics the turning of the body is the engine driving the energy multiplying lever. Legs first and hips second are what drives the engine of the lever. That is why core strength exercise is essential. Most people can run. Running fast and accurate even when tired is athletic. It takes inordinate amounts of practice time to keep good form and accuracy and repeatability while running fast. At least if you aren't athletic already. So that should be a training goal only when you're great at putts, approaches and control drives. If you don't just want to rip 'em.

[jenb]

Regarding grip, it seems that the more pinch pressure I apply with my thumb and index finger, the more power I get. But should I grip hard like that throughtout the throw, or only at the last second? The reason I ask is because someone on DGCR was saying they got tendonitus whenthey started trying to grip hard through the whole throw.

Also, is there anything wrong with stacking the middle finger with the index finger to increase that pressure for stronger grip at the pivot point? I recognize that the wrist movement will not be quite as constrained as with Climo's stacked fork grip, but I'm more concerned about injury, and stacking the ring finger with the pinky can still help constrain wrist movement to some degree.

[Jeronimo]

Also, is there anything wrong with stacking the middle finger with the index finger to increase that pressure for stronger grip at the pivot point?

No, do it. I do the same thing, my rip point is a mix of index/middle finger.

[JR]

Is your arm hurting Jen? If it is i can't recommend hard enough to rest and throw less the next time. Your body will adapt in time to more stress. Can you increase the playing times per week with reduced time to throw? That may reduce the strain on the arms and hands. You absolutely do not want to have tendon inflammations. I've had surgery and i have several horror stories. Like not being able to breath due to pain for 104 seconds. Yes i clocked it because it wasn't the first time that day and i knew it was the worst i'd gotten. Luckily that was the longest forced breathing pause i've had. And i have swimming/free diving background.

My hands aren't large and i have all sorts of grip troubles apparently. Micro slips confirmed by high speed video. I haven't had the time test things out but i am too flexible in the right index finger outermost joint. It needs support. I got new discs yesterday and tried out my first ES Leopard and couldn't even grip that reliably!!! I tried to support the index finger outer joint with my middle finger and couldn't really reach it well. The disc was oriented all wonky in my hand after that and i couldn't find a good grip no matter how many versions i tried. AAAARGGGHHHH! Vector was easier. With some troubles i put my middle finger to the rim and stacked the index finger to support the middle finger and the grip was stronger and the disc wasn't as falsely oriented. Not good either. No joy considering my flexible fingers. Even worse because each stack grip gives more tendon and muscle tension in the foreamr. Automatically slowing down the arm speed. Which may be academic because you get huge speed and spin increase from proper big snap involving disc pivot.

Now i know why i like the thinnest discs possible like XD, Spike and Buzzz. Flat Flicks are good grip wise out of the wider winged discs but the flight is another matter.

I would definitely try to get a grip that allows maximum looseness and the resulting arm speed increase and tendon motion range increase for a larger disc pivot. This mandates getting the disc pivot in the first place. Squeezing hard at the beginning has the added disadvantage of health issues. For that reason alone i recommend not squeezing hard in the beginning. One measure of proper pinch timing is to get a disc pivot each time. Another yard stick is to pinch so late that you never get slips and always get maximum arm speed from looseness as far into the arm motion while not getting micro slips. Starting out slow with thin discs helps in diagnosing.

[Sean40474]

Niloofar Mosavar Rahmani is the Swede that holds teh current distance record with Millennium Orion LF. Probably Sirius plastic and i think it was mid 160s. I haven't seen her ever nor throwing vids either.

I'd think that the River might be better with more power. Optos have safety margin and GLs tend to flip way more and fade harder. So it's like faster Teebird and Eagle in one mold two different plastics.

I think i was the one warning about hitting the uterus area. The high pull line Blake and i mentioned is the old school way of throwing and as time progresses more and more players of both sexes have started to pull on lower lines. For women all jokes aside breast size is a large factor. Val certainly is at a disadvantage with a choice of available techniques.

Don't knock the high pull line because it does indeed feel tight, clumsy and uncomfortable to all even to those that have used it for years. The comfort level ain't what counts but accuracy, repeatability and distance (snap). What doesn't work in the short term might be better in the long term so i would field train shoulder high and different lower lines for at least half a year to see how things develop. High pull line is unnatural and most don't do that kinds of motions outside of disc golf so it's not familiar. Muscle cells can change from medium fast to fast with practice and it usually takes at least three months to see any changes and six months minimum to see real visible results in performance. That is why pulling on a high line takes time to work. If it is even gonna work better for you in the long term than low lines.

Only you can know what works for you best in the long term after you've tried out all the combinations. That will slow down other progress inevitably because you could be putting during that time. You gotta balance what you want and can do with the time you can use for practice and playing to make the best choice.

If you cut corners now you might limit your best distance potential in the future. No other woman can tell you what's gonna work best for you either because of chest differences etc. Everyone has a different mix of medium fast cells to fast cells in the muscles and flexibility, speed and power in different muscles. That means different strengths and weaknesses to be utilized or avoided. Shooting down weaknesses is always good because that reduces the sources of inconsistencies. My core is too weak so i get hip tilts anny and rarely hyzer when i don't mean to. It gets more common when i tire.

Considering spine to right finger tip is a lever in terms of physics the turning of the body is the engine driving the energy multiplying lever. Legs first and hips second are what drives the engine of the lever. That is why core strength exercise is essential. Most people can run. Running fast and accurate even when tired is athletic. It takes inordinate amounts of practice time to keep good form and accuracy and repeatability while running fast. At least if you aren't athletic already. So that should be a training goal only when you're great at putts, approaches and control drives. If you don't just want to rip 'em.

Millennium still has her old distance record listed on their homepage.

http://www.pdga.com/ecs-day-one

That is awesome for a chick to be throwing that far, she out throws most males in this sport.

[Sean40474]

Also, is there anything wrong with stacking the middle finger with the index finger to increase that pressure for stronger grip at the pivot point?

No, do it. I do the same thing, my rip point is a mix of index/middle finger.

I'm the same way myself (but I don't stack) and was beginning to think that I was gripping incorrectly (then I heard J-La rips from his middle finger and hits 500'). It feels that my middle finger is my main rip point as evidenced by the callous being thicker than on my index finger. I do feel a great rip and eject force but it seems counter intuitive as I feel that I'm not getting maximum disc pivot. It seems to me that I would be getting the most disc pivot if I were to rip from my index finger solely.

My grip on the disc is different than what I've read and seen in several videos. My thumb is on the flight plate much more than on the rim. When I have my thumb closer to the rim or on it I don't get the feeling of max grip pressure. When I put my thumb more on the flight plate I get a much more positive rip. My pull line is high and parallel with my shoulder and I'm still getting the nose down and hitting 450' on my longer throws. I feel like my arm may not be loose enough through the pull through or I'm not getting my hip involved enough or I'm not getting maximum disc pivot. I think figuring out one of these things or a combo will yield the next distance jump.

[jenb]

I thought I'd update. I've started getting a little better, and it's kind of fun to go back and see what I was trying out a few months ago. 13 of my last 14 rated rounds were 800+, and averaging about 75 points higher than a few months ago. I credit that to playing a lot of putter and mid rounds, and turning to my putter in the woods and any time I need to hit a gap. Also, I'm getting a pro leopard out to 275 - 300 feet with pretty good accuracy now and parkign the occasional hole. More recently, I'm putting a 170 pro vulcan out to 350 - 375 feet, although I'm still working on the accuaracy with that disc.

So the chillaxed arm thing didn't pan out. I just seem to be developing a better sense of timing and finding discs that work for me. Just a lot of practice and steady progress. No shortcuts here.