Combining concepts

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Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:59 am

Hey guys,

I've reached a point where my Teebirds are hitting the 390's so I think I'm at the half-hit point more or less. I wanted to draw up a little diagram to explain what I've actively been trying to focus on to get where I am now that combines all the concepts I've read about here on DGR (Hammer Drill, right pec, snap thread, etc). I'm hoping that some of the technique guru's will chime in and verify the key ideas in here.

Image

Also, feel free to point out what's wrong so I can make it better!!!!
Last edited by jaboc83 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby kern9787 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:52 am

I would like to point out that your artistic abilities are greater than that of Blake's.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:55 am

Ha. I guess if Blake claims kindergarten quality I've moved to a 1st grade level of poo.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Redisculous » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:17 pm

This is really good, thanks for putting the time in to draw it up.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby JR » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:25 pm

Shouldn't you fight the bending back of the wrist? Have you looked at Marty Peters in Discraft video More Distance Now?
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:32 pm

JR wrote:Shouldn't you fight the bending back of the wrist? Have you looked at Marty Peters in Discraft video More Distance Now?


I guess I'm not sure. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Blake is saying.

Blake_T wrote:the wrist isn't supposed to stop after it straightens. that is the half-hit method. the full hit method requires your wrist to go slightly beyond straight. this is how the bulk of the speed/force is applied to the disc and yields greater accuracy.


I suppose it doesn't say to actively open the wrist, maybe that is just supposed to happen naturally... I'm not sure where I read that, but for some reason I had it in my head that you need to actively help the wrist open. I don't really know because I don't think I'm doing it either way right now :) That's my next step.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Redisculous » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:43 pm

The way I understand what JR is talking about, is resisting the closing of the wrist, not the opening of it. This is similar to holding the handle of a wooden spoon with your throwing hand, and pulling back on the spoon part with your other hand. You resist your wrist bending, and then when you let go with your off hand, your wrist snaps forward.

The weight of the disc bends your wrist back in a similar way to this analogy, but what releases the wrist is when your arm begins to change direction, so the weight of the disc is no longer directly behind your wrist.

Anyways, that's how I thought it worked.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:48 pm

Yeah, I totally understand the resisting the close part. I think I just misread something about actively opening the wrist from neutral to sightly open. It does seem that the wrist should naturally open if you aren't fighting to keep it neutral. I adjusted the drawing to reflect the change.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby MrScoopa » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:13 pm

Nice drawing! The hammer symbols illustrates shifting the discs weight very well!

You do want to actively open the wrist AFTER it is incidentally opening. Which it will naturally do when the hand starts to move sideways as the shoulders start to open. The little wrist movement leverages the disc around the index and thumb adding to the "incidental pivot".

You can see for yourself how much power that little wrist nudge creates by holding the disc with a 1 finger grip (index and thumb pinch) and opening just the wrist. You can really swing the disc around pretty fast even from stationary. With added momentum going into that pivot it all gets multiplied. That is what the hammer pound drill teaches.

I was thinking of something goofy yesterday. Try throwing a baseball backhand(like a discgolf drive) without opening the wrist. It will probably slip out and have no real force or control. If, however, you do manage to hold onto the ball it will FORCE your wrist open and you will get a better, but still not as powerful or controllable throw(half hit). Now, if you do the thing that feels natural for this "weird baseball backhand motion" which is open the wrist and sling the ball out(full-hit). You will have the best possible "backhand baseball throw".
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Blake_T » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:34 pm

this is really really close. i drew in the correct placement of the hammer handle and head.

Image

the only other modifications i would really make are that:

-in the bottom middle i wouldn't say that the other fingers will be off that disc at that point for everyone. back in 02 when i could throw far they would leave 1 at a time (in rapid procession) before the final fling and the last lock finger wouldn't leave until the wrist was neutral or slightly past it.

-where you wrote rrip, that's actually more of a sling. by that point the disc direction and the motion of the hand are basically working together like a sling (a good snap is almost frictionless on launch). this is sort of why the wrist opens... the inertia of the disc forces the wrist open.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:47 pm

Blake_T wrote:this is really really close. i drew in the correct placement of the hammer handle and head.


Ahh yes, that makes more sense.


Blake_T wrote:-in the bottom middle i wouldn't say that the other fingers will be off that disc at that point for everyone.


You can chalk that one up to piss-poor drawing skills. The fingers are supposed to still all be under the rim in that pic, that part you are seeing as the fingers is the part of the hand below the pinkie. my intention was to show the fingers ripping off in the last pic but it doesn't really look like it :D

Blake_T wrote:-where you wrote rrip, that's actually more of a sling. by that point the disc direction and the motion of the hand are basically working together like a sling (a good snap is almost frictionless on launch). this is sort of why the wrist opens... the inertia of the disc forces the wrist open.

Agreed. Sling would be a better verb I'll maybe make some corrections and edit the original post :)

Thanks for the input so far everyone!
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Dookville » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:01 pm

That is some beautiful work guys, a really go throwing thought for my head. Thanks much.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Beetard » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:29 pm

Yeah, thanks jaboc83 and Blake. I still wasn't understanding why shoulder rotation had two phases or how/when to execute the second one until jaboc83 put together these illustrations.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby zj1002 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:38 pm

I have decent distance(by top pro standards) and this thread opened my eyes to fixing some issues with my throws. These latest drawings by blake have helped me see some problems in my own throw. I had already been working on a shoulder dip issue that was causing unintended nose up. I guess I had never payed attention to drawings like this in the past, but I definitely realized my shoulders were still squaring up too fast. This really helped my timing(and confidence)

I was throwing mids(warrior) from a standstill out to 325-350ft(no wind) with these adjustments. thanks blake(and jaboc for making this post)
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Jeronimo » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:43 pm

Blake, you realize the actual mass of the disc and the place you redrew the "hammer" don't mesh right? The way Jaboc drew his hammer is quite literally correct in terms of mass.
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