Combining concepts

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Re: Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:01 am

Very cool!
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby MrScoopa » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:42 pm

As promised here is an example of what can be done in around 30 minutes max.

Image

Take the angles with a grain of salt. I am pretty sure they are off somewhere!
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:58 pm

Ok, figured I'd try to replicate my diagram the way I picture it using the stick figure editor (It definitely takes some getting used to.) Kinda neat.

Image

And in slowmo

Image

You have to ignore the fact that it slows down during the disc pivot. I didn't attempt to recreate the acceleration by adding more frames because the program isn't all that easy to manipulate. Kinda looks like it's going in at 60mph and out at 50mph if you know what I mean.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby MrScoopa » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:27 pm

Very nice! It really does bring the pictures to life. I like what you did with the disc!

EDIT: And yea the speed part is hard to gauge. You are pretty much guessing like "I want it to move half as fast here so I'll add twice as many frames".
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:54 pm

cool program. i might fiddle with it if i actually got motivated.

with the animation the shoulders are too open before the pivot.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Dookville » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:47 am

Blake_T wrote:cool program. i might fiddle with it if i actually got motivated.

with the animation the shoulders are too open before the pivot.

Here is a link showing a forward, overhead, and rearward shot of Christian Sandtrom throwing a drive. It has a nice close-up slowmo from the rear that demonstrates the shoulder position at release that I think blake is talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lcgm8#p/u/0/0KOafXWyCUw

Awesome animation brother, watching it puts a nice picture in my head, it's like I can feel the body parts in slowmo. Hit that shoulder rotation right on the animation and it will be money.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby jaboc83 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:26 am

Blake_T wrote:with the animation the shoulders are too open before the pivot.


I always pictured it the other way in my head, but when I went out and threw one yesterday to double check it was just like you said; the pivot happens before the shoulders completely open.

Here's a little revision.
Image
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby emiller3 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:29 am

So even though Discraft Marty (or whatever that guys name is in the Discraft distance video) says that your wrist will be going from neutral to open, the reality is that it will be going from closed to neutral and you are just supposed to be trying to counteract that (the wooden spoon analogy)?
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Blake_T » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:48 pm

if you try to keep the disc close to your body, your wrist must close. to keep the wrist neutral entering the power zone you must either be late and miss the power zone completely, pull the disc wide, or t-rex the throw, none of which are good things.

from my memories of "feeling it" on big snap throws from years and years ago...
it's more like your wrist goes from neutral to closed to neutral... to open.

it doesn't do an arc from closed to open. it's more of an abrupt change from closed to almost neutral and then a slow crawl from almost neutral to neutral then an abrupt change from neutral to open.

if beto chimes in on this he can probably comment as to whether or not his feel is similar to mine as i know he has enough body awareness to notice.

i don't condone trying to force anything with the wrist. trying to make something happen or trying to prevent something from happening avoids the process of how it must happen. for example, with the hammer pound, you don't "try to make your wrist do <blank>," you try to pound the hammer and "your wrist happens to do <blank>."

there are ways to make it stronger, but i don't think it's beneficial for anyone to know what that is until AFTER they can feel it. basically, you get a ton of people trying to do something without knowing how to do it and it just f's them up even more.

i prefer to make general statements like, "a stronger lever is better than a weaker one," since people who can feel the leverage will naturally develop ways to strengthen it if they are aware of this concept. if you write something out stating examples of how to strengthen the lever, people who don't feel leverage will try to do those things in the absence of leverage, making developing leverage even more difficult to develop and the things they tried won't yield any positive results.

developing solid leverage is a factor of timing and positions. strengthening that leverage is a matter of fine tuning certain muscles and contact points assuming that the timing and positions are already there.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby JR » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:51 pm

Dookville wrote:
Blake_T wrote:cool program. i might fiddle with it if i actually got motivated.

with the animation the shoulders are too open before the pivot.

Here is a link showing a forward, overhead, and rearward shot of Christian Sandtrom throwing a drive. It has a nice close-up slowmo from the rear that demonstrates the shoulder position at release that I think blake is talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lcgm8#p/u/0/0KOafXWyCUw

Awesome animation brother, watching it puts a nice picture in my head, it's like I can feel the body parts in slowmo. Hit that shoulder rotation right on the animation and it will be money.


sandstrom.rehder.dk has the full sized pictures of the rear angle view on that video. 6 megapixels resolution at 40 pictures per second for one second. That hole is the first in The Scandinavian Open 2010 course at Discgolfterminalen in Skellefteå, Sweden. It turns to the right initially that is why Christian throws an anhyzer.

A steeper top down angle of Avery Jenkins at the Tali Open 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSZyYAVPbs
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby emiller3 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:34 am

Blake_T wrote:i prefer to make general statements like, "a stronger lever is better than a weaker one," since people who can feel the leverage will naturally develop ways to strengthen it if they are aware of this concept. if you write something out stating examples of how to strengthen the lever, people who don't feel leverage will try to do those things in the absence of leverage, making developing leverage even more difficult to develop and the things they tried won't yield any positive results.

This makes sense, I read a lot of advice regarding wrist extension that I tried to incorporate before I had developed any leverage and none of it had any positive effect. The hammer drills taught me how to integrate leverage into my throw in just a few minutes. I guess I'll just experiment and see how I can strengthen that leverage.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby Spinthrift » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:47 am

Bump for the stellar revised graphic above.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby cubeofsoup » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:04 am

I'm trying to learn and better understand the throw so I'm going to just kind of explain/breakdown what I can and maybe someone can chime in with what I'm right/wrong about. Here are some screen caps from the Sandstrom video that I think really illustrate the timing of the throw.

Image

To get from pic #1 to #2, it is extremely coordinated between the hips, shoulders, and arm. He led with the elbow into #1, then uses the hips/shoulders to start the whip of the arm.

Image

From #2 to #3 it's pretty much the before and after of the hit. The shoulder and hip turn caused his wrist to collapse in on his forearm and then he hurls the "hammer" causing the disc to eject.

Image
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby JR » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:11 pm

I'd like to point out how he is flat footed just before the hit and 1/40 seconds later the foot pivot is only starting. He also raises the rear leg before the hit. That slows down how fast the body turns to the right. Check out his calves. The right one seems pretty loose all the time which is surprising and probably a testament to his power but see how the left calf is so tense from pushing forward? He does not seem to push back with the right leg judging by the looseness of the right calf. Maybe it is his anhyzer form because this shot left him weight back enough to throw a rising anhyzer which the fairway dictates.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Combining concepts

Postby andrew » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:02 pm

I felt like asking jaboc83 if he could overlay the graphic but then decided to try doing it myself which was a harder task than I'd anticipated. In the end, I realized all I wanted was an orienting center line, which he could've probably added to the graphic in 5 seconds. Anyway, here's what I did to his efforts:
Image

I don't know if it's accurate, but it's an interesting comparison to the thing Blake-T just drew up on another thread (discussing micro-slip zone)...
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