Player not present...

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Player not present...

Postby Dag » Wed May 18, 2011 7:50 am

I'm walking back up the fairway to the previous lie for a lost disc of mine and another player on our three man card states he's going to the bathroom and disappears into the woods. I play back to the basket and neither myself or the player that accompanied me on the replay have any idea where our third or his disc are. We hole out and move on to the next tee. The foursome behind us catches up and is waiting with us at the next tee.
PDGA Competition Manual states:

1.5 B (1)&(2) wrote:If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent.

Does this apply to the situation described above? The Competition manual states this specifically in reference to teeing at the beginning of play and subsequent tees following the beginning of play so, while I assume that it would apply, it's not entirely clear.
...there was a time when you were taught to find the best disc for you, not the best disc for your situation on the course, which is how they are sold now. IMO, the flight charts are basically there to point out all the stuff you dont have in your bag and why you suck.

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Re: Player not present...

Postby juju » Wed May 18, 2011 8:08 am

Was it aliens that took him?
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Re: Player not present...

Postby juju » Wed May 18, 2011 8:09 am

Yes it does apply. Did you make sure to split the two groups up after he disappeared? No two-somes allowed.
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Re: Player not present...

Postby Dag » Wed May 18, 2011 3:51 pm

juju wrote:Was it aliens that took him?


Nope. He holed out without us and went to take a dump at a bathroom located mebbe 200 yds from where we were at. He was gone for 10-15 minutes and I was on the brink of suggesting we play the next hole as a six when he came running back.

We were playing Rec, the lowest division offered at the event and as such, the bar for compliance with rules is a bit lower. The two that I was paired with did not know or did not care about the rules of play. We started with the gentle reminders to mark lies and not play out of turn. Then we had 'No, you can't break branches in front of your lie even if they are dead'. One of the two started trying to play more in line but the other basically was ignoring everything, complaining about how long the round was taking in between chat/text sessions on his cell phone. Then I lost a disc. I asked cellphone guy to come down and help search. He finished his call and came down to where we were looking to stand around looking bored. When I declared the disc lost was when he disappeared.

As it was Rec, I didn't do anything other than reminders at first and by the time it had escalated to the potty break incident I had burned a half dozen strokes in anger and let myself come to the point where trying to do something like assess strokes/penalties could have rapidly gone out of control. I'm not certain I could have done so anyways as I would have needed a second or majority to do so and neither seemed very knowledgeable. The other option would have been to seek a ruling from the TD but I wasn't comfortable taking the time to do so, potentially delaying everyone else.

juju wrote:Yes it does apply.


Thanks. I found 803.13 A(1) after my initial post. Would this also apply to the hole where the individual in question holed out without us seeing him do so before heading for the bathroom?
...there was a time when you were taught to find the best disc for you, not the best disc for your situation on the course, which is how they are sold now. IMO, the flight charts are basically there to point out all the stuff you dont have in your bag and why you suck.

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Re: Player not present...

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed May 18, 2011 7:08 pm

Par+4 only applies on the first holes of the round if missed. In the middle of the round a player first gets a warning for being late to the tee (or making any other throw) or gets DNF if he doesn't show at all. Further late violations cost a one throw penalty.
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Re: Player not present...

Postby Dag » Wed May 18, 2011 8:54 pm

So, had we merged with the group behind us and teed, the absent player in the above example would have been DNF?

On the previous hole where the incontinent player holed out when no one else was watching before heading to the bathroom, would 803.13 A(1) or (2) apply? I'm assuming the throws to hole out needed to have been witnessed to count but I've yet to find any direct reference to this.
...there was a time when you were taught to find the best disc for you, not the best disc for your situation on the course, which is how they are sold now. IMO, the flight charts are basically there to point out all the stuff you dont have in your bag and why you suck.

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Re: Player not present...

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed May 18, 2011 9:01 pm

Actually, players are responsible for watching other playeres make the throws and complete the hole. If the player says they completed the hole with a certain score, benefit of the doubt goes to that player unless the other players can counter what the player said based on their observations.
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Re: Player not present...

Postby Billym » Wed May 18, 2011 10:01 pm

Dag,
Move up to AM2 next time. At least most of the rules will be followed. Most of the examples you gave (breaking branches etc) are all worth warnings right away and strokes after. You are not being a prick if you ask your group to follow the basic rules.
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Re: Player not present...

Postby rusch_bag » Thu May 19, 2011 7:33 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Par+4 only applies on the first holes of the round if missed. In the middle of the round a player first gets a warning for being late to the tee (or making any other throw) or gets DNF if he doesn't show at all. Further late violations cost a one throw penalty.



So this dude went and took a dump for 15 minutes and we are supposed to wait for him and give a warning? Is that the right process, I am confused?
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Re: Player not present...

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Thu May 19, 2011 7:36 am

Not saying it's right but do you see anything in the rules that would require anything more than a warning if a player is still at the event but is excessively late to the next tee or even their next throw? Could be a loophole that hasn't really been exploited.
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Re: Player not present...

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu May 19, 2011 8:59 am

Don't stroke a dude for having to dump, that's just mean man. I mean sometimes you gotta hit the can and DG courses aren't exactly usually well laid out for quick access to a bathroom.

Personal experience story time: I've had multiple PDGA's where a guy will ask if he can go to the bathroom and not get warned/stroked and the group has always agreed to it. It's not the players fault he has to walk halfway (or whatever) across the course to get to a bathroom.
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Re: Player not present...

Postby hegemony » Fri May 20, 2011 2:54 pm

Do you let other tournament groups play through?
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Re: Player not present...

Postby Dag » Sat May 21, 2011 9:14 am

Frank Delicious wrote:Don't stroke a dude for having to dump, that's just mean man.


I appreciate what you're saying but at what point does it become excessive to delay however many others? What if that 10-15 minute delay was a 15-20 minute delay? We were at least a hole ahead of the card behind us. They ended up waiting with us at the next tee and the following card was finishing upshots on the previous hole when we finally could tee. The player in question never told us he was off in search of a flush toilet, he just said he had to go and stepped into the woods so we had no idea when/if he was coming back. Everyone has had those moments when the lower GI is not happy and a dash for the bathroom may loom on the horizon but with half a brain, many of those moments can be avoided by not eating certain foods before/during an event or not subjecting one's self to excessive chemical stress the night before. If all else fails, Loperamide (Imodium being a popular brand) can make the world a much happier place.

My point here isn't to prosecute a single incident, which is past and done. I don't feel the rules adequately address the situation. More than thirty seconds yields an excessive time violation. If the offending player is not present, the violation can not be given so the time extends out indefinitely. Perhaps there should be an excessive delay violation? Five minutes or ten minutes or some other concrete number that could be base reference, understanding that it could likely flex situationally as do thirty seconds to throw and three minutes for a lost disc in many competitions? At what point may a group be justified in proceeding without an absent player?

Chuck Kennedy wrote:...gets DNF if he doesn't show at all.


When?
...there was a time when you were taught to find the best disc for you, not the best disc for your situation on the course, which is how they are sold now. IMO, the flight charts are basically there to point out all the stuff you dont have in your bag and why you suck.

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Re: Player not present...

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sat May 21, 2011 10:58 am

Here's a reply from one member of the Rules Committee but it's not an official position from the group yet:

There's nothing in the current rules to prevent this. A player could theoretically delay (whether in the loo or not) indefinitely and only receive a warning. Of course, pressure from his group and other players will mount and make it uncomfortable to continue delaying.
But we shouldn't have to rely on that.

One possible approach for fixing that in the rules would be a graduated approach (which I believe they use in tennis and other sports):
something like a warning at 30 seconds, a stroke at X minutes, and DQ at Y minutes.


So if this happens and the delay gets excessive (say 10 minutes), especially if groups are piling up, an effort should be made to find the player and also the TD. The TD can allow a further delay at the stressed player's request and allow the next group(s) to play through. If the player cannot be found or is incapacitated, the TD makes the call for DNF. That's how I see it could be handled until the RC comes up with more clarity.
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Re: Player not present...

Postby jenb » Sun May 22, 2011 5:31 am

My understanding is that groups can only play through in tournaments where the group in front is standing aside with an official for a ruling, and the TD is the official in Chuck's example if I'm not mistaken.

But groups can't join up with other groups at all as far as I know. So I don't think that could be an option.
:p
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