Rear leg pivot/push?

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Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby seabas22 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:08 pm

Do you pivot or push with the rear leg, or both? My rear hip/knee always looks off to me and know I can be generating more power from the hips, but can't figure out how. :?:
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby MDP » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:24 pm

Predominately push.

Depending on what angle your left foot lands in the x-step, it might pivot or rotate a little, but it's predominantly a push that gets your weight shift started.
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby Apothecary » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:30 pm

yup. like propelling yourself on a skateboard. weird that youd be pivoting with that foot. can you post vid?
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby seabas22 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:41 pm

There is something screwy with my weight shift, but I feel like I get a good push with the rear leg. When watching vids of the pros, the rear knee drops and they are able to keep the rear hip low. When I push my knee goes back up along with my rear hip. I know BW has posted that the rear foot pivots in the snap 2009 thread, but that is all that is really said about it. Maybe I'm pushing wrong or not pivoting or something.

The first vid I took today trying to work on this and the second is from a few days ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SIaWMXNh1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRU0F8Lv9GU
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby JR » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:30 am

The faster you move the harder it is to pivot with the left leg. Masterbeato posted a link about Steve Terada doing double pivot in a martial arts show. And MB wrote about double pivoting adding more power. Double pivoting is different from pivoting with both legs. Double pivot has the left leg pivoting from the x step prior to the right leg plant whereas pivoting with both feet after the right foot plant.

Seabas here are a couple of observations from the later shot video. Your left leg ain't going the Feldy style to the right of the right leg or staying on the ground until past the rip. So you can't push forward and turning to the right. You lose speed from the weight shift forward and some of the snap because you don't accelerate as fast. Reasons for this are counter force to the arm chop and lack of all the power available from the left leg. The faster you rotate to the right the more the wrist gets bent back force wise and if you can resist that while staying fluid (i think Avery Jenkins meant the same as Blake does with fluid wrist) the faster the wrist will snap.

You can test the effect of the counter force of the arm chop by standing on the right foot alone on the ground heel up or ball of the foot up depending on how you pivot and make the arm chop so that the back of the right hand is touching an immovable object and starting the motion from the right pec position going to the follow through. Something is wrong if you don't turn your body opposite the direction of the pivot.

You still raise the right leg to the right when your chest faces 90 degrees left of the target. That will lengthen the final step and it requires more left leg push strength to maintain the rest of the form. It also makes the pivoting of both feet after the plant more difficult. You also move so fast that it may be difficult or perhaps impossible to pivot with both of the feet simultaneously after the plant.

Your left leg push is a swimming start forward and up. Deleting the upward angle and converting the direction of the push to forward and at lower speeds to rotational too will help a lot. It is easier to turn toward the target once you keep the left leg on the ground and keep on pushing hard to the rip. But you throw too far already and fixing this will make you throw even farther. I hate strong people that don't need to have perfect form and still out throw me :-D
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby seabas22 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:37 pm

Thanks JR! You are spot on about the swimming start with the rear leg, takes a fellow swimmer to relate it. :wink: Getting over the muscle memory from that is going to be a bitch. Besides skate boarding(I never could get the hang of it), I assume hitting a baseball would be similar footwork comparison, or ball golf.

I also think that Blake, Brad, Avery, and Marty Peters are all describing the same thing with the wrist motion just saying it a little differently.
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby MDP » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:48 pm

seabas22 wrote:Besides skate boarding(I never could get the hang of it), I assume hitting a baseball would be similar footwork comparison, or ball golf.

It's similar, except if your throwing RHBH and hit RH it's on the opposite foot (throwing side arm however, is very similar to the first half of a baseball swing). The back leg is also more rotational than in disc golf: it goes all the way from 90 degrees to 0 degrees.

Baseball swing is also more centered. I'm guessing because you hit the propelled object instead of slinging it, the follow throw isn't nearly as drastic. For example you would never, in standard form, lift your back leg off the ground during a baseball swing.

Now that I think about it...it might be more similar to some Japanese hitting techniques (think Ichiro).
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby seabas22 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:17 pm

Kallstrom and Brinster remind me of Griffey Jr. DG has a lot more forward momentum, so I'd assume that brings up the rear foot and causes the front foot pivot. Also hitters are more weight back because they are typically swinging up to hit it out of the park.
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Re: Rear leg pivot/push?

Postby JR » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:47 am

The left leg push causes the right leg pivot also. Think having the right leg being glued to the ground when you are walking forward. You'd fall straight forward from the momentum. In an x step you have the left leg pushing forward _and rotationally to the right_. Something that isn't 100 % in your form yet. Because the left leg is situated where it is and the right leg is stiff and pivoting it is pretty clear that you could jump forward with the left leg if you wanted to like a long jumper or a swimmer but that isn't what you wanna do. You also want to utilize the different sideways position of the legs to twist the left knee from left to right and pushing during that motion also rotationally to the right. Doing the same with the right knee adds more power. Running at full speed would require pretty fast and extremely strong legs.

You can't Chubby Checker twist the legs to the right at high speeds (at least not so easily) so doing it in approach throws adds a little controllable repeatable non accuracy robbing power. At least when you get it down to be automatic so that you don't have to think about it opening a door to doubt etc. messing up your execution.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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