Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

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Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby MDP » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:03 pm

Background:
I've been playing disc golf for 7 years or so, the last 5 RHBH. I've plateaued around 400' on disc golf lines. Ever since Breaking 350' I've struggled consistently with release angles. Anytime I throw above 60% power, I almost always release the disc 10-30 degrees off to the right. Sometimes, when I grip-lock and release right, it's more like 45...but that's a different issue...

However, all off my longest throws, with the most snap, all occur 10-30 degrees off to the right. In open fields I've thrown well beyond 400' but always off to the right. If I focus on releasing straight I lose 50-100' of distance. Obviously throwing a controlled shot will result in loss of distance compared to a pure distance throw, but I'm getting the lines out of the disc I want, just not in the right direction...

I've tried a number of things to remedy this: starting off the tee-pad to the right, changing grips, focusing on arm extension forward and not around...but nothing actually worked.

I took some video footage of me driving (which I unfortunately can't upload until I get a hold of a Firewire800 cable) and watched it and noticed a few things. My reach-back isn't so much of a reach-back as it is me slowly swinging the disc out and around from front to back. I'm relatively flat footed throughout.

Today I did some field work trying to stay on the balls of my feet and actually reach straight back with mixed results. However, I was still realeasing a lot of them off to the right or, oddly enough, too early (left) with unintentional hyzer. My wife was with me and said that my torso was coming through very early. So I intentionally tried to stop my torso rotation, while still leading with my hips once it was squared up during the beginning of the pull through to the hit.

It took some getting used to, but I had a couple of decent throws that I released right on line. I still wasn't getting the snap I had before, but I was close a couple of times, so I might just need more practice.

I'm not a very big guy, but from baseball and other sports I've learned to make use of my core and legs to generate power. But this means I need to have my technique down well because I can't just compensate by relying on upper-body strength.

TL;DR
My question is where should the torso be in terms of rotation at the hit? I know it should come through after the hips, but does the disc/hand lead it as well?

Also, if you read the above, is there something else that might be causing the late release? I'm sorry I can't post the video, but if you have an idea let me know and I can look for it in the video.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby JR » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:38 am

Flailing about with the arm is gonna make timing a bitch and murder repeatability. If you reach back with a straight line and throw with a straight line there are the least amount of variables possible and the largest time window of rip going in the right direction. Pause is a word you need to get familiarized with. In DG form pause in the leg and hip rotation occurs after you've turned from 180 degrees away from the target to 90 degrees left of the target RHBH. The pause ends when the disc at about the right pec position. During the pause i need to move the arm a little to get the disc from the left pec to the right pec. Some say they don't need to move their arm at all to get to the right pec position so different physiology i guess. If you slow down it will be easier to get accuracy through maintaining better form and having a longer time in which to get the disc off your fingers.

Are you strong arming? If you pull the arm at full power from the plant step your arm may be slowing down or rather the disc. A later or more explosive acceleration through the hit will get the disc off of your fingers reliably in time. A non accelerating throw can stick to the fingers for a long while. Do you aim visually on top of other aiming methods? Slowing doen helps in acquiring the target earlier. The target should be pin point sized vertically and horizontally if possible. in nature it ain't always possible so you should pick something that is small and easy to see and distinguish from the surroundings if possible.

A too early leg, hip and shoulder rotation in any combination or alone can lead to facing right too early and cause a miss to the right. An arm pull from a left away from the body reach back to a right of the body rip will lead to a miss to the right. In extreme cases of planting way too far to the left will trip you partially and turn you right so fast that the arm can't keep up and the rip is late and ends up right because that is the way the body is going. That often leads to steep annies or rolls unless it is a high throw with a disc that flexes out to an s-curve which will increase distance over a flat throw.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Redisculous » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:45 am

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16139&start=165

Image


This diagram was from a different conversation but demonstrates about how you should be when the disc comes out/arm moves to the right.


Image


If you dig through the forums enough the questions you ask have been covered alot.

Your arm should be way out there before the shoulders turn (via the hips), and you start to face up as the arm goes to the right and around. Basically the angle between your upper and lower arm needs to be obtuse before the shoulders pull your arm around and back, which releases the wrist, slings the disc.

Like JR said, it's good that you realized the pause thing, it is necessary to get your arm up front. Throw your arm forward with the first 90 degrees of your rotation, as it's going forward prime the hips, once you are in position, sling it out with the second 90 degrees.

If you haven't tried the hammer pound drills in the secret technique thread, you should. Just keep in mind, as far as your positioning question goes, that when you throw, instead of your arm stopping, the shoulders pull your arm to the right, which will cause the wrist to go forward, as opposed to the drill, in which the wrist goes forward because the arm stops.

There has been some really good discussion near the end of that thread about keeping the thumb pointed back etc...
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby MDP » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:02 am

Thanks for the responses guys. I've read through the whole secret technique thread and gone through all the drills but something wasn't clicking in the field.

I think I'm overcomplicating it. So there is a pause in upper-body rotation after the reach-back (pictures 2-4 in the first diagram). Somehow I managed to miss that. My rotation has always been a continuous one (probably a hold-over from baseball) starting form the reach-back, so that pause is going to take some getting used to. It felt very awkward and I had trouble finding the target.

It's more than likely that I'm also starting my pull too early. I feel super awkward if my reach-back last for too long, so I may experiment with delaying the reach-back a bit.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby gretagun » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:30 am

JR wrote:Pause is a word you need to get familiarized with. In DG form pause in the leg and hip rotation occurs after you've turned from 180 degrees away from the target to 90 degrees left of the target RHBH. The pause ends when the disc at about the right pec position. During the pause i need to move the arm a little to get the disc from the left pec to the right pec. Some say they don't need to move their arm at all to get to the right pec position so different physiology i guess. If you slow down it will be easier to get accuracy through maintaining better form and having a longer time in which to get the disc off your fingers.


There is a post somewhere from Blake where he says a lot of people think the hips move from closed to open, but in reality, they should move from closed to neutral, then from neutral to open. I believe this corresponds to the pause JR is talking about. Once your hips move from closed to neutral or 90 degrees to the left of the target, the elbow moves forward until the disc reaches the right pec area, then the hips go from neutral to closed and the elbow extends towards your target. I'm probably way off here, and I have a heck of a time reproducing this myself. It's so easy to understand and comprehend what is supposed to happen during a throw, but it's nearly impossible for me to actually do this when I throw.

I'm having similar issues ad MDP with my drives always being just slightly right of my target, so I'm going to continue to watch this thread.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Whiz » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:47 pm

I think you accidentally a word. ;-)
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby MDP » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:55 pm

Did some field work and played a round tonight...

Sometimes I would release early and hyzer, sometimes just late...

I'm really having trouble doing the pause this with any kind of consistency. Is there a specific drill? Maybe I just need to do more right pec drills...I have a feeling I'm just going to need to do a lot of practice to break the habit.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby JR » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:24 pm

gretagun that is what i meant.

The right pec drill is what the rest of the throw is. The pause is between pictures 2 and 3.x. I am twisting the hips from neutral to the right and the legs before that before the arm is where it is at in picture 4. Not saying that is the best way but it is a way to turn more toward the target to help in visual aiming and utilizing more lower body. My arms aren't that fast or powerful so i get much of my D from the legs and core.

Keeping relaxed muscles is really the key the rest is timing and body positions thing.

The first part of the throw is to stand back to the target for a distance throw and short reach back feet 100-45 degrees away from the target for control throws when the right leg plants and turning the legs and hips from left to neutral. Not much to be drilled there motion wise. The middle part before the right pec drill is to see how your anatomy works to bring the disc forward from the reach back without moving the arm at all then stopping the leg and hip turning muscle power input then moving the arm to the right pec position if needed. The key is to be patient and slow enough to stay in control to not start the right pec stuff and twisting the hips from neutral to right too early. Going at a third of normal speed helps a lot. Body position training should always start at slow speed and that is why people go through the motions of a throw in pre throw routine in slow motion. It allows one to think and notice possible problems more easily. Note that when you take power input away from the legs and hips going from the reach back to chest pointing 90 left of the target you will turn a little from the momentum. As long as you aren't overdoing it and out of control you won't turn away from the way you should throw so you don't need to break the motions. That means that you can come in relatively slowly and with little muscle power use from the reach back to 90 left position if you have run up steps thus momentum. The benefit here is that when you engage the muscles from the right pec drill position you'll pour fuel to the fire and generate more power if you are like me. Some Finnish big arms have different experiences YMMV. I'm not a muscular guy and am getting older so i can't keep on accelerating as long as they can so i'm better off starting full power later than they. This spring was the first time when i didn't lose a lot of distance from an early pull vs a late acceleration. I've worked out so the results may vary according to changes in strength and speed.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby MDP » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:39 am

Thanks for the reply JR. Like you, I derive almost all my power from core/legs so I think I'm just trying to rush to the hip rotation because I know I need it.

Well, looks like I'm going to go look ridiculous throwing putters in slow motion tomorrow.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby JR » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:13 pm

I fucked up by rushing in front of a very distinguished crows in dubs at the Finnish Open 2010. I called beforehand that i'm going balls to the walls on this throw and hit my left side with the disc and it landed in a pond. A 20€ disc :-( Before my back wasn't busted i could twist my hips much faster so that injury has shut some doors and options. I wouldn't wonder if people could pull off an earlier hip twist than i can. Especially leaner more athletic types. For me so far the best distances have come from staying loose until the right pec position. That is the source of power for me YMMV.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby MDP » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:08 am

I did some field work this morning, then played a round after work. I noticed that not only was I releasing right, but I was following through to the right (definitely means my hips were open too much, too soon). I focused on finishing on line with my target and that seemed to help.

During the round I hit almost all of my lines, but the snap still isn't there (still throwing 50-100' shorter than I should be). It's not a true fix yet, but it's a start I think. Now that I'm online, I need to relearn right pec to hit with corrected body positions. I think before, I was using overly rotating hips as a crutch to generate power...but it was horribly inaccurate and inconsistent.

I had one throw on a dogleg left with a PD2 that felt much better than anything I'd thrown in a while.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Blake_T » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:39 am

I'm really having trouble doing the pause this with any kind of consistency. Is there a specific drill? Maybe I just need to do more right pec drills...I have a feeling I'm just going to need to do a lot of practice to break the habit.


i rarely if ever come across someone who can consciously pause. you're better off trying to do something else (a different throwing motion) that happens to make you pause.

I derive almost all my power from core/legs so I think I'm just trying to rush to the hip rotation because I know I need it.


I think you guys think you derive more power from the core/legs than you actually do. snap still dominates, because without it, it doesn't matter how much energy you generate from the legs/core because you won't transfer a meaningful amount of it. you get power from the legs by using an athletic weight shift. forcing a hip rotation is much weaker.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Peot » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:30 am

Blake_T wrote:
I think you guys think you derive more power from the core/legs than you actually do. snap still dominates, because without it, it doesn't matter how much energy you generate from the legs/core because you won't transfer a meaningful amount of it. you get power from the legs by using an athletic weight shift. forcing a hip rotation is much weaker.


Is this just because consciously thinking "hip turn" is generally a good way to sort of "detach" the hip rotation from the rest of your throwing motion? By which I mean, is forcing a hip rotation just a sort of inorganic extra motion that inhibits the rest of your throw? I think this is akin to hitting a baseball in some sense; the great hitters get phenomenal core power transferred to the ball, but do so by driving through their lead leg/hip.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Blake_T » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:10 pm

Is this just because consciously thinking "hip turn" is generally a good way to sort of "detach" the hip rotation from the rest of your throwing motion? By which I mean, is forcing a hip rotation just a sort of inorganic extra motion that inhibits the rest of your throw? I think this is akin to hitting a baseball in some sense; the great hitters get phenomenal core power transferred to the ball, but do so by driving through their lead leg/hip.


They're somewhat similar, but not really.
A strong baseball swing is triggered by a rotation of the back hip and the front foot pivot doesn't happen until you are attempting to drive the ball after contact.

also, what people tend to interpret wrong about this is that you are trying to swing the bat. if you were trying to throw the bat things would be more clear. the big front pivot dig wouldn't happen until the bat is about to leave or in the process of leaving your hand. hitting != throwing.

forcing a hip rotation puts the hip rotation out of order.
the hip rotation is a two stage process. the first hip rotation happens because of the x-step (or pivot hop step) or whatever type of run up you may be using (or not using). with a standard x-step if your left foot is facing away from the target your hips close and assuming your right foot is planted at an angle other than 180 from the target, your hips will naturally rotate during the weight transfer. how far the first rotation happens depends upon the angle of your plant foot. if it's 90 degrees, your hips will go from closed to neutral. if it's 45 degrees your hips will go from closed to open 45 degrees.

the big pivot dig doesn't happen until the moment (or slightly after the moment) the disc is leaving. this is the second rotation.

if you force a single pivot, going from the x-step to the second pivot, things happen out of order.

besides this, in terms of basic power, core power is only part of the equation. snap (force transfer) dominates all of it. you can have relatively low core power but if you can transfer all of that to the disc via snap, you will get a surprising result. if you have 80%+ snap efficiency you'll find you don't need much to get something going. e.g. a 10 degree rotation of the core done at a very slow speed can still put 300' of power on a disc.

if you want to compare apples to apples, you have to do something with similar behavior of the torso/hips and footwork that increases the potential power of those.
if someone like masterbeato does:
1-step throw - he can still go like 425' at will
x-step throw - he can go like 525' at will
360-turnaround throw - he can go like 550' at will.

x-step vs. 1 step yields a 19% increase in distance.
360 vs. x-step yields a 4.5% increase in distance (but like a 100% increase in calories used to perform said action)

Overall beto throws with 75-95% snap efficiency depending upon the day.

taking things on a more normal level, my wingspan is roughly 1' shorter than his and my hands are significantly smaller (less grip leverage).
on a good day i throw with ~90% snap efficiency (there's barely any way to "get more" on it for what I put in).

on those days i can:
1-step a roc 325'
x-step a roc 350-360'

i get a whopping 7-10% increase in distance by increasing the amount of core power used.

so... with that in mind, how much power do people think they can add by trying to exaggerate core motions?

granted, the worse your snap efficiency, the more core motions will influence your throwing distance, but it seems more beneficial to work on snap efficiency in those cases before worrying about core motions.

for someone with poor snap efficiency they might see something like this:
1-step - 200'
x-step - 375'.

In these cases it's a 47% increase in distance but their input/output ratio stays the same.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Peot » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:28 pm

I asked mainly because I think my distance increases have come by accruing marginal amounts of snap increase but being physically very powerful and having a well-trained CNS is what propels most of it.
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