Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Blake_T » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:09 pm

I asked mainly because I think my distance increases have come by accruing marginal amounts of snap increase but being physically very powerful and having a well-trained CNS is what propels most of it.


those with high percentages of fast-twitch muscle fibers are definitely at an advantage over those who do not. those who are in shape and flexible have an advantage over those who are not. if you are in shape and flexible you will be throwing farther than if you are out of shape and stiff. those with big hands and long forearms will throw farther than those who do not.

working within yourself, you can get distance increases by changing your physique, but these are usually fairly minor in comparison to big snap increases.

if you have maxed out your snap, then future distance gains will pretty much happen slowly, with physical changes, minor technique refinements, and technology changes paving the way.

overall though, it's small potatoes. if you can move your arm, you can throw with higher levels of snap.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Peot » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:36 pm

I don't have much snap. I'm only starting to break 350" on flat ground and I have problems getting rip on the index finger
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Blake_T » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:43 pm

problems holding on are in most cases related to timing and body positions. in other cases it's sometimes a factor of hand size vs. rim width and plastic grade.

you would probably benefit more from adding snap than anything else. improve your snap efficiency by 20% and you'll boost your throwing power by 10%+. spend a year training and boosting core muscle performance and it will probably still only yield ~10%.

it's pretty sad but most of how far you will actually throw is determined by very small muscles in the wrist, hand, and forearm.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Steady 26542 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:37 pm

So what you're saying is that my 57 yr old body that has lost a lot of it's flexibility, with my skinny wrists, and my small hands will probably only produce 325' max. :mrgreen: Which is what I'm getting right now... I have nothing to live for... :lol:
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Peot » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:33 am

Blake_T wrote:problems holding on are in most cases related to timing and body positions. in other cases it's sometimes a factor of hand size vs. rim width and plastic grade.

you would probably benefit more from adding snap than anything else. improve your snap efficiency by 20% and you'll boost your throwing power by 10%+. spend a year training and boosting core muscle performance and it will probably still only yield ~10%.

it's pretty sad but most of how far you will actually throw is determined by very small muscles in the wrist, hand, and forearm.


Oh I'm certainly trying to add snap... I think the actual physical motions of the throw I can complete pretty efficiently considering how little I've actually played this game. The physical tools I've acquired as a matter of recourse, having been trained to destroy other grown men via Olympic/power lifting, hill sprints and hours and hours of wrestling.

I think I might be a good candidate for your next mad scientist experiment, Blake...
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Redisculous » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:08 pm

Blake_T wrote:
the big pivot dig doesn't happen until the moment (or slightly after the moment) the disc is leaving. this is the second rotation.



This has me thinking, if I understand this correctly, there is no power to be gained from the second pivot? It just happens to allow my body to rotate around? I think I have been forcing the second pivot, trying to get extra power out of it.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Blake_T » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:55 pm

This has me thinking, if I understand this correctly, there is no power to be gained from the second pivot? It just happens to allow my body to rotate around?


heh... dude... this is going to be such an abstract concept that it's probably almost a waste of time for me to write it hehe.

in a low-snap throw (usually with a rushed shoulder) the second pivot occurs merely because the body keeps moving after the release.

in a high-snap throw (with acceleration and force transferred to the disc) the second pivot happens if you get your full body into the force transfer.

basically, you have to separate the throw into a push and a pull. you push the disc into the power zone (aka point of impact). you pull the disc through beyond the point of impact. the second pivot has nothing to do with the push... nothing at all. if you try to milk a pivot into the push you are getting nothing from it, you'll only ruin your body positions and probably wear out your glut on your pivot leg.

if you give a hard "pull" at/beyond the point of impact, you will pivot if your entire body is into that motion. you don't force the pivot, it happens because your entire body is opening up and it will force the pivot.

most people never reach the point of impact. low snap throwers release around 1' early before ever reaching it.

even for a high snap thrower, if they don't have a second pivot in conjunction with the pull portion it means they aren't harnessing their entire body into the throw.

a good example of the second pivot.
pre-pivot (look how far forward the disc is already):
Image
immediately after release the pivot has started:
Image
the pivot continues into the follow through:
Image

another look.
pre-pivot (pretty much at the point of impact):
Image
pivot:
Image

another look:
pre-pivot (just beyond the point of impact):
Image
pivot:
Image
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Redisculous » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:07 pm

Not that abstract actually.

A few months back, when I was practicing a lot and really working on the hammer pound, I had a few really great field sessions where I felt like I was really pulling "back" on the disc when I extended my wrist past neutral. I knew I had to somehow get my body to come through to aid that feeling, but have been failing miserably at doing so, and trying to change things up in a bad way (like trying to pivot out too soon).

Thanks for the post Blake, I'm going to see if I can find that feeling again and work from there.
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Blake_T » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:15 pm

pivoting happens because of timing/positions and power. if you try to force the pivot it won't happen correctly.

these positions are barely worth seeing visually to most people since their timing/positions are usually quite far removed from them.

it's abstract because most people lack the ability to differentiate the in motion from the out-motion (aka before the point of contact vs. after the point of contact).
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Redisculous » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:42 am

Is it possible that facing up too soon is a result of a poorly timed weight shift?
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Re: Torso rotation, release angles, and snap

Postby Blake_T » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:49 pm

in rare cases it can be, usually in the form of a forward flop, but most times early face up is due to other factors.
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