Try this for getting the nose down

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Try this for getting the nose down

Postby JR » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:01 am

I think I found an easy way to get about as much nose down angle as you need for even the highest max D lines. Even with wide rimmed drivers with my small hands and stubby fingers. I don't know if this kind of grip has been described before. It is a blend between a bonopane and a grip my friend used to use. I haven't seen a description of my friends grip so don't know if it has a name either. Please tell me if these grips already have names.

The grip that my friend and I used for a short time sacrifices grip strength by slipping but can be accurate for approaches. Here you insert the disc in a fist between the ring finger and the middle finger. I took Dave Dunipace's tip picture of the bonopane from Innova site and combined these two grips. In my grip I drop the disc from the bonopane position of the disc between the index finger and the middle finger to my friend's version between the middle and ring fingers. I keep the thumb near the center of the disc with the tip of the thumb at about two o'clock form the center of the disc if the leading edge of the disc is at 12 o'clock with the elbow and wrist extended towards the target. I curl the index and middle fingers so that the tips touch the bottom of the base of the thumb to the right of the thumb. The right side of the middle finger rests on top of the disc and the index finger rests on top of the middle finger. The ring finger is the rip finger. I keep it twisted at the two outer joints. The middle joint is at the apex of the vertical part of the rim and the bottom of the rim. The pad of the ring finger squeezes the disc to the seam of the hand. It is mechanically and muscle relaxation wise slightly easier to keep the pinky curled below the ring finger. But if you stack the pinky on the ring finger closer to the edge of the disc you get a harder grip strenght and more potential distance.

If I move the back of the disc from the seam of my hand to the innermost joint of the thumb I can get even more nose down. I'm just not too sure if this will always induce off axis torque and always limit the D.I call these grips variations of the "low bonopane". I can't test these grips myself right now because of an injury. With bonopane I can get about 30-35 degrees nose down max. With around 20-40 % muscle tension from my hand muscles. With my "low bonopane" I can get to around 50 degrees nose down with half the tension of the bonopane on the muscles helping arm speed. regrdless of the pinky position. With slight relaxation if the pinky doesn't touch the disc.With off axis prone back of the disc to the inner joint of the thumb low bonopane I can get 85 degrees of nose down with around the same muscle tension as the low bonopane. How's that for distance lines to as high as you can throw? All degrees of nose down assume wrist down as far as I can get and arm/forearm/hand parallel to the ground. with wrist at handshaking position. Muscle tension estimates come from standing still at the rip positionish full extension of the wrist and elbow described in the previous sentence. The test disc was a pro Wraith 175 g which is too wide rimmed for me for power grip. With power grip I can only get the nose down by about 8-10 degrees with around the same or slightly higher muscle tension than the regular bonopane. Your mileage varies at least according to the flexibility of your hand muscles, wrist and the size of the hand.

If you try these versions please tell me what kind of results do you get compared to your previous technique. Please tell what the previous technique was. Hope this is helpful.
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Re: Try this for getting the nose down

Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:52 am

JR wrote:
If I move the back of the disc from the seam of my hand to the innermost joint of the thumb I can get even more nose down.


This will work, but is not necessary. What is necessary is nose down practice. You, apparently have little idea of how to purposefully create nose down. You should change that.

I use "nose down catch" to practice nose down.

Here are the rules.

What may help get the nose down?

1. Throwing hard. Power can force the nose down.
2. Throwing less nose sensitive, less stable discs. Throwing "easy to throw" discs can MASK nose down issues.
3. Using some weird grip. Not necessary.
4. Leaning chest down into the shot (weight forward). Can lead to jamming of the knee without proper form.


You are not allowed to do any of these things in my "catch" drill !!!!!!!

It is easiest to get two players, or you can use a basket to aim at.

1. The disc of choice is a Z or ESP Predator.
2. Stand about 100' apart.
3. Throw with 80' of power.
4. The disc should fly flat straight out from the chest and slowly descend. The "catcher" should NOT be looking at the bottom the disc EVER.
5. The disc should fade flat. This means the Predator will slide left and try to skip. It should not "die" nose up.


You ARE allowed to use three elements to increase nose down:

1. Your wrist angle should be down when the disc rips. The disc should release from all parts of your hand simultaneously. You do not want a "thumb, then fingers" rip. The disc should EXPLODE from your hand (see step #2)

2. Acceleration. Keep you pull very, very,very, very short. You do not want a long pull that SLOWS DOWN, you want a very, very short pull that POPS HARD. This should be a shortened version of the same acceleration you would use in your full drive. I can throw 80' power and never bring the disc behind my front shoulder more than a few inches.

3. One step footwork Start the throw with your feet together (about 45 degrees to the target) and take one step forward and with your throwing arm foot (if you throw right handed, step with your right foot) and throw. this is the same typical step you might take if your were playing baseball catch. Just enough movement to get you moving toward the target. When you step lean forward naturally and get your weight over your lead foot. In this sense, it really is a "catch" step.

Lastly, you throw flat. That means a flat plane to the ground. No hyser, no descending plane allowed. The launch should be flat and forward, straight out from the plane.

This is fun, believe it or not.

Aim 20' right and slide/skip the disc the last 20' using the flat fade.
Last edited by Bradley Walker on Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Jones » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:39 am

That is very similar to the drills I have been doing. I've been throwing with about 100-120 feet with a low line drive with pretty strong discs. I don't have anyone to play catch with though, so it probably isn't as fun... and I probably look stupid doing it.
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Re: Try this for getting the nose down

Postby JR » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:41 am

[quote="Bradley Walker"][quote="JR"]

If I move the back of the disc from the seam of my hand to the innermost joint of the thumb I can get even more nose down.[/quote]

This will work, but is not necessary. What is necessary is nose down practice. You, apparently have little idea of how to purposefully create nose down. You should change that.

Janne: I agree that 85 degrees is very difficult to see as something useful. I wasn't suggesting that it is something to strive for. Just to illustrate that it is possible to have loose muscles and way way too much nose down depending on the grip.

You made too many assumptions of what I know. For example the angles that I achieved were done standing still and upright and I did not mention that. I do have slight but probably not enough weight forward in my x step when there's not too much snow under my left leg to dampen the push forward. Throwing hard for some techniques might work. For me it has been a double edged sword. Trying to throw as hard as I can my hand bounces unpredictably in the end and sometimes the achieved nose down angle flattens in the end of the throw. Probaly partly due to weird leg and bodywork as well as hand muscles not keeping up with too fast arm speed initially with too abrupt acceleration. I would had saved a bit had I purchased less nose sensitive discs than I use. Actually almost all my drivers are mostly overstable and nose sensitive because I had off axis torque induced fillipping over so I did the rookie mistake of compensating with too overstable discs for my throwing speed and snap. And thje latest and greatest syndrome.

Not throwing hard hasn't been a problem. Throwing too hard with false timing especially acceleration wise and the speed and quickening of the acceleration to the end has been my problem. Along with others. I had done a a couple of tests with the bent elbow technique before busting my hand. Admittedly I began from more behind than you with the leading edge of the disc at the level of my left side but I didn't throw 100' either. 200+' even without the step. Slightly more with the step. So been there and done that. Except with less overstable discs mostly. I pull the very overstable stuff out for drives not putts/lay ups.

I have trained real situations that I have faced on the courses I play. On different holes and field practice as well so a lot of variety in my tarining regime. I throw with discs best suited for the task mostly. There's some fooling around with discs designed for different distances to hone my skills but not usually. Haven't found much use because I can predict what's gonna happen and make the flight follow what I had envisioned with totally inappropriate discs for the shots. That's me always experimenting with something odd.

I haven't done the catch part though. not with thinking those kinds of rules. I've tried putting nose down at 33' and there are a lot of good things to be said about that but it doesn't apply here that much. So not so much new stuff for me really.

The reason that I wrote this post was that on the PDGA forum Citysmasher wrote about nose down. And I thought that I've seen this matter surface several times so I went overboard on trying to give people something that should give them "enough" nose down for a while. Like forever. By the way would citysmasher happen to be you Bradley? Citysmasher was wondering how to get nose down and high trajectories simultaneously. Well I think I might have given a couple of ways to achieve "enough" nose down angle for most needs :-) As in should suffice for most if nothing else works...

Your practice method is fine but it is not the only way. Actually having trained differently I see your practice method as better suited to laying up to the basket under or through obstacles. Because I usually try to go for the basket at 100' if there's not something dangerous near the basket such as a ravine and there's no wind.

Do you shift your weight forward as much as you do with the x step? To me the primary method of getting the nose down and limiting the height of the apex on golf drives with low ceilings is weight forward and slightly descending throw from back to forwards. Sometimes only with the descending throw. Usually I don't need it. Only during snowy season. Wrist down is a given. Thought I'd mentioned it to make sure that I'm understood correctly.
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Postby MrTasses » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:25 pm

Bradley: Great practice idea. I think I will try it with a few of my friends, most of them have a habit of throwing everything nose up. I think I throw my shots mostly level so getting a better feel for nose down would be a great thing.
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Re: Try this for getting the nose down

Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:50 pm

JR wrote:Your practice method is fine but it is not the only way. Actually having trained differently I see your practice method as better suited to laying up to the basket under or through obstacles. Because I usually try to go for the basket at 100' if there's not something dangerous near the basket such as a ravine and there's no wind.

Do you shift your weight forward as much as you do with the x step? To me the primary method of getting the nose down and limiting the height of the apex on golf drives with low ceilings is weight forward and slightly descending throw from back to forwards. Sometimes only with the descending throw. Usually I don't need it. Only during snowy season. Wrist down is a given. Thought I'd mentioned it to make sure that I'm understood correctly.


If you think this you do not understand the purpose of the drill.

Leaning forward, pulling down, torquing, these are all crutches.

Remove the crutches and see what we got. The drill shows your TRUE release angle without manipulation, speed, torque, body position, or the disc being in the equation.

I am the Citysmasher, and as you can see, I got very little response on the PDGA Board. I believe this is due to the fact that very few people know what they are doing. They do it, but they do not have a clue HOW they are doing it. Due to this fact, I have decided to develop my own drills.

A lot of disc golf is "you gotta feel it man, feel it in the cosmos and then let it happen... it has to flow man.... eeer toke on this..."
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:53 pm

MrTasses wrote:Bradley: Great practice idea. I think I will try it with a few of my friends, most of them have a habit of throwing everything nose up. I think I throw my shots mostly level so getting a better feel for nose down would be a great thing.


Lastly, you throw flat. That means a flat plane to the ground. No hyser, no descending plane allowed. The launch should be flat and forward, straight out from the plane.
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Postby Craig » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:01 pm

Bradley, can you maybe post some video of some of these throws? Sorry to be a pain, but I think it would help if I could see what you mean about the accelleration part
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Postby Jones » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:54 am

It is interesting that the Technique section of the PDGA forum isn't as lively as you would think. Not many who know what they are talking about post there or seem to want to help anyone out really. I've found this forum exponentially more interesting and helpful.
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Postby JR » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:31 am

[quote="Jones"]It is interesting that the Technique section of the PDGA forum isn't as lively as you would think. Not many who know what they are talking about post there or seem to want to help anyone out really. I've found this forum exponentially more interesting and helpful.[/quote]

Unfortunately I have to agree. I don't know the reason but have an inkling that this is a lot like what the future of the sport will be. A livelihood for the top crowd that is larger and more competitive. If withholding information is what pays your bills and you can't yet replace that income with teching classes you are poorer. I don't blame the pros at all. This sport needs full time professionals in order to grow into a major sport. And I think that is the future. I just don't think that it is fair for beginners to be forced to pay through the nose for zillions of lessons to be able to match the competition. If one really wanted to. Quess what happens to a relatively small sport if the challenge of learning it sems insurmountable? No new players no big time.

In reality there's way too little money for the pros to make a living. Only a couple could live on winnings alone. Don't know about the sponsorships but few if any women could sustain themselves now. And this is at their peak what happens if they injure themselves? Who can be at the top until they retire after earning enough for the rest of their life?
Last edited by JR on Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Try this for getting the nose down

Postby JR » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:32 am

[quote="Bradley Walker"]
Leaning forward, pulling down, torquing, these are all crutches.

Janne: Agreed for learning purposes. Not for throwing. I don't use all of them all the time. I don't wanna torque and in the beginning of my career I telegraphed properly because I released flat and followed through flat. My technique has evolved in my two years of playing with discs designed for discgolf. Two years before that I used beach discs :-) Talk about technique change. Back when I started to use proper discs I did not know what I was doing because I hadn't read any advice because I hadn't found any sites nor forums about disc golf. Then I didn't know about weight forward, hyzer, proper form pulling down you name it. I just did it. With original mold max weight Beast. Really beginner friendly -not! I learnt a lot about the flight of the disc as Blake suggests. Just not great results at first :-) From there I went to truly way overstable discs. Max really shows the difference between poor technique and good technique and I have a lot of other less overstable but still very overstable discs. The Max I bought for sidearm. Haven't had a Pred but threw a couple of drives with it and know that it is good for learning like you say.

I was beginner in the sense that everything was different compared to beach discs and I had precious little theoretical knowledge. In the beginning I was just shy of 200' with the Beast. Back then I experimented with all sorts of stuff including exactly how you describe. Learn't the lessons and moved to these crutches. Like Nate Doss uses on Discraft driving clinic or most if not all of the pros as well :-) This is no news for me but really helpful way of learning things for novices. No disagreement there.

Bradley: Remove the crutches and see what we got. The drill shows your TRUE release angle without manipulation, speed, torque, body position, or the disc being in the equation.

Janne: Good advice but not helpful to me since I know this already by not having the crutches initially. Small hands and short fingers really annoy me with wide rimmed drivers with power grip. That's why I've gotten more distance with two finger grip thatn power grip. Of course muscle tension is less and wrist movement larger with the two finger approach. With probably too little gripping power to prevent throwing to the right the discs slipped from my middle finger making nasty callouses. So obviously not enough strength with the fingers made worse by the awkward position and barely reaching around the rim with the index finger. Long story short I get too little TRUE nose down angle for distance lines, golf lines with discs that require a lot of nose down angle and have wide rims. Since the last parts usually (always?) come together you know how I feel.

Luckily(?) I've achieved so little distance lately with previous poor technique that I am confident that I can throw at least as far with a Storm that is the easiest disc that I have to get the nose down with. IIRC I get around 15-20 degrees nose down with the power grip by standing still and extending my hand like I've previously described. True nose down varies and I've often noticed that I've really had to wrestle the disc with my hand muscles to keep the nose down on hard drives that must stay low. And that was when I tried to throw nose parallel to the ground... Boy reading and asking around on this forum has helped me understanding a lot :-D Ok that piece I got from the articles but anyway.

Bradley: I am the Citysmasher, and as you can see, I got very little response on the PDGA Board. I believe this is due to the fact that very few people know what they are doing. They do it, but they do not have a clue HOW they are doing it. Due to this fact, I have decided to develop my own drills.

Janne: Still don't think I should be a PI :-) I hear you. I have the same way of responding to the problem. Ask here and develop your own stuff :-) I think that all of this is a result of how people mostly learn to throw. By asking someone else who says do this. Not explaining why something works because they learnt the same way. Somewhere down the line broken telephone effect hit and the teachings of the gurus that really know got blocked. Only the easy bit went forward. It is the quickest way to teach but has limitations. Like not having knowledgeable people in your area or not meeting one. This won't help in becoming a mainstream sport IMO.

In any case I've presented yet another crutch that should suffice for most needs :-^ It may not have the best possible grip strength for max D or golf D but hopefully enough to be useful for most holes and especially for fairway drives on huge holes. Possibly the stacked pinky and ring finger versions are enough for huge D as well. I won't know till I can get out there and throw. That's why I'm interested to see what kind of results others get if they try this and what kind of D they get. And how easy it is to keep the muscles loose and what that does to arm speed and snapping. And what the consistency is like. The previous advantages might be negated by inaccuracy for those that don't have enough power in their fingers. Waiting with interest if somebody tries these.

I certainly will try these grip variations because I wanna see the difference on wide rimmed discs for once thrown with loose muscles and enough nose down. Itching to throw and probably still 2 months away with my better hand. Might get around to throwing with my off hand in a couple of weeks. Can't wait for that either. Even though it is agony because I've thrown llike four times and yuuuuuuccckkk!!!! I realize the long term benfits though. Even though I have a helpful sidearm. On one hole I've thrown farther wtih sidearm than backhand.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:55 am

Jones wrote:It is interesting that the Technique section of the PDGA forum isn't as lively as you would think. Not many who know what they are talking about post there or seem to want to help anyone out really. I've found this forum exponentially more interesting and helpful.


I think it is because good players seldom make good teachers. This is a near universal truth in every sport.

There are exceptions, but those exceptions are truly HALLMARK players.

Jack Nicklaus
Johnny Miller
Byron Nelson
Bobby Jones
Ben Hogan

These are the only great golfers who demonstrated incredible teaching ability (Bobby Jones is border line). Most, if not all were "extremely technical feel players". Sounds like an oxymoron, but it isn't. The truly great players strive for perfect technique and then let go of that cerebral element when they play. Because they study their technique so much, they discover absolutes that can be passed on to students. In other words they develop "methods" and "drills" to replicate their technique.

Most (not all) really good disc golfers are "100% feel players". They have very little concept of what they are doing when they are playing well, they just do it. As a result, they cannot show anyone else how to do it. In fact, they typically sound very confused by their own explanations when forced to discuss their technique.

Most of the really, truly BREAKTHROUGH teachers are marginal players (compared to World Class, at least). this is due to the fact that they possibly do not have the God given talent of the great players, and they have to work and learn more precisely.
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Postby The Clergyman » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:29 pm

I'm going to put on some music, pop a bag of popcorn, set aside a couple of hours and read this thread tonight. In the meantime how do you pronounce bonopane?
1. bawn-o-pain
2. bawn-a-pin
3. bawn-i-pain

or any other variation?

I read the first entry of the thread and got excited about the grip and regardless of all the pther stuff, I want to try it because it feels good in my hand. But today was pretty exciting because it started to snow again (sarcasm) :evil:
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Postby The Clergyman » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:26 pm

Or,

Bone-a-pain?

:?
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Postby PRES 10 » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:14 pm

I just got done playing a round around our yard, I was having trouble with nose-up. i tried Bradly Walkers excersise for a threw throws, but I had to throw the think like 30 feet in the air to keep it from diving nose-down into the dirt at about 50 feet. Is this what is suppost to happen or am I doing something wrong? I am using my z pred, and I can see the bottom of the disc most of the time if I do it correctly.
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