Ask Gateway!

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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby GatewayDiscSports » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:41 pm

Sorry about the delay in responding, been away at am worlds and having some non disc golf related summer fun.

I've made several posts in the past that references the labeling of our discs.
To clarify,,,,, the marking is more related to the surface hardness of the polymer as opposed to just flexibility.
All of our "S" putters ( besides the mediums) are likely to become more flexible with use without changing flight characteristics much,,,so an SS that seams like a soft will become a bit more flexible after just a few dozen rounds. Ive played disc golf since it was called frisbee golf ,(started back in the early 70's) and from my 35 plus years of experience its much better to have a disc break into what you want as opposed to becoming something you don't want after a few months. Buying a putter that is perfect out of the box that changes to something more flexible than you prefer is a planned obsolescence that would help a company sell you more discs.
Most people know very little about the plastics industry and expect us to label our discs ( specifically SS) the way Innova would, sorry that we dont label our discs according to how they label theirs. If innova had 4 versions of flex/hardness of their the putt and approach discs, I'm guessing you would see the same type of variation.
The thing is they don't have 4 flexes of p &a and no other company offers 4 PLUS flexes/hardness's in one model, yet alone in 4 different models of putter.

In the plastic world MOST plastics are much firmer than even our mediums would be. Trust me when I tell you that a medium wizards is about a 3 out of 10 on the scale of how hard plastics can actually be produced.

It certainly true that we have variations in runs ( and theres always human error that can factor in),, all companies have variations in runs and will continue to do so for many years to come.

We try our best to be consistent in our labeling but there's always a run or so every once in a while that just falls in between.
These runs will typically get marked more softer as we know they will still become more flexible with use, never the other way around.

I'm not so sure that switching to an ION over a different Gateway putter that fits your game is something a top pro player would do or recommend you do either. The last time I checked there was not one 1000 rated player I know of that is using anything other than a Gateway, Discraft or Innova putter to win events and leagues at the highest level of competition.

I have what appears to be 4 or 5 different runs of ions,, they all seem quite different from each other and there's no marking at all on any of them. the TPU in a putter is not what is preferred by top players, although they do look nice and amateurs seem to enjoy the durability.
I wouldnt reccomend polyurethane for putting or short lay ups to any players I would coach, it is ( IMO) no where near as good for the finesse part of the game that requires your fingers to be off the rim pinching the flight plate.

Comparing an ion to a Wizard is a bit of a stretch at this point. I'm certain their greatest success in over molding will come in the form of mid-ranges & drivers,,,especially if they begin using S style plastic for the putters. If/WHEN they can get a medium "S" style in the flight plate and SS style in the rim,,, a seasoned pro may give them a shot,, until then,, at least they look cool.


Ill try and get to the other questions tomorrow,,,we are running glow and I'm getting ready to turn out the lights and see how much they are glowing :)
Last edited by GatewayDiscSports on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby GatewayDiscSports » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:56 pm

btw,, frank D,,, I think we just ran some wizards that you would like, care to test fly them?
\send me your address to david@gdstour.com,,,same for you BLake T,, these are really close to the circle engraving wizards that are between soft and medium.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby Frank Delicious » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:34 am

email sent re: wizards.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby Dig It » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:10 am

GatewayDiscSports wrote:btw,, frank D,,, I think we just ran some wizards that you would like, care to test fly them?
\send me your address to david@gdstour.com,,,same for you BLake T,, these are really close to the circle engraving wizards that are between soft and medium.

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How can the rest of us get some of those?
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby mattw » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:41 am

I decided to order three softs from Solty. These feel awsome. Just a slight amount of give to the flight plate and the texture is nice and grippy. We also have a new shop in town that has a realy nice selection of Gateway putters in all plastics. So its been nice to be able to hold them before buying. Out of the Wizards they had in stock they all felt pretty much the same based on the way they are stamped. All the mediums felt pretty hard, soft all had nice texture and felt pretty firm and so on down the line. Gateway putters are popular in my area so the store probably has quick turnover on thier putter stock. It will be interesting to see what the next shipment is like. If it feels like this round it will be money.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby dehaas » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:35 am

GatewayDiscSports wrote:btw,, frank D,,, I think we just ran some wizards that you would like, care to test fly them?
\send me your address to david@gdstour.com,,,same for you BLake T,, these are really close to the circle engraving wizards that are between soft and medium.


sweet, are these going to be ran in softer plastics? i've managed to get my hands on some old circle tooled wizards locally and love them. i've got a few with the white birch 25th anniversary stamp on them that are pretty killer. some super softs that are crazy floppy and some yellow supersofts that are firmer but fly awesome off the tee.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby GatewayDiscSports » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:02 pm

There's literally an infinite number of ways to produce a Wizard.
The most obvious is polymer blends, but molding temperature as well as mold surface temperature can play a big part as well for the look and feel of the discs. Each variable of temperature can produce a slightly different look and feel even though the polymer blend may be the same.
The way the part is filled has a lot more to do with how the discs fly which is much more significant in drivers, but can certainly have an effect on the flex. if the polymer blend is a 85 a shore ( which is a ss) and it is packed out really hard the discs will not be as flexible. meaning if a batch is blended and through normal processing it is only weighing 165, it can be packed out more to make it weigh 175 which would make it a lot less flexible than if it were the other way around.
Say the batch was weighing 180 it would need to be shot into the mold differently to get the weight down.
In both of these instances the hardness of the plastic itself would still be 85 A shore and there for SS.

Colors also play a part in flow, surface and hardness,,, if it were up to me all golf discs would be white.


So a simple solution would be to mix every batch the same, but with humans you will always have the chance for error.
Also a batch that is mixed and molded on a 30 degree day and 20% humidity will react quite differently than the EXACT same formulation molded on a 100 degree with 90% humidity.

one solution would be MUCHG larger batches and we are getting there.
we use t o run batches of 200 discs now its closer to 500,,,
Last edited by GatewayDiscSports on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby dehaas » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:17 pm

oh, i'm not complaining about the colors and the fact that they're both marked as supersofts. i think people like the older circle tool wizards is because of the flight, they seem to be more stable. i thought when you compared this new run to the circle tooled ones you were referring to stability, that's why i was hoping to get them ran in something softer than between soft and medium.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby GatewayDiscSports » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:36 pm

dehaas wrote:oh, i'm not complaining about the colors and the fact that they're both marked as supersofts. i think people like the older circle tool wizards is because of the flight, they seem to be more stable. i thought when you compared this new run to the circle tooled ones you were referring to stability, that's why i was hoping to get them ran in something softer than between soft and medium.


The comparison in the run last night was based on the feel and flight ( I'd say they are as just over stable as any we have made in the past).
They are pretty flat and sharper on the nose and the flight plate feels really thin.
The Shop and mold were extremely hot which helped the plastic flow into the rim easily,, meaning we didnt need too much pressure to fill the part. The flight plate winds up being a little thinner this way.
By thinner I'm only talking about a few thousandths at most but certainly enough to make the wing to flight plate ration in a 175 gram putter,,,,, wing heavy. In a run where we have to really pack out the discs ( lighter or colder), the flight plates get a little thicker since the plastic is pushed from the center out to the rim.


We should have workshops for players who wold like to experiment with plastics and colors.

How much would it be worth to let a guy spend 4 hours mixing polymers and making their own batches???
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby Itchy » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:15 pm

Itchy wrote:
GatewayDiscSports wrote:
Itchy wrote:Are there any stiff HPP Elements? I like Elements and I like HPP plastic, just wish it was stiffer.


There are some fairly stiff pink ones on the shelf right now,, how stiff do you like it?... is outside the rules ok???



Yes, I've been buying the purple/pink ones because they felt the stiffest in the store. I like them firm like the first two discs in this video (first is a S, the second and third are HPP).

I didn't know there were rules about how much flex a disc had to have (hope I haven't put anybody on blast) and I only play for fun, but I'm still picky about my plastic (and some times rubber). If I could get one more stiff one I'd be pretty happy to have the back up.


Not to be pushy, but any chance you've found a stiff Element I can buy off you guys?
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby dehaas » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:21 pm

i think it'd be a cool idea. i would come by for a few hours on a day off just to say that i've seen how it was done. it would be sweet to be able to say that you made the putter you're using. i don't know if you said it costs x dollars to come make your own discs people would be as interested. but maybe if you said, for x dollars you can come take a tour, help mix plastic, and take x amount of discs YOU made home people would buy into it more. so essentially you'd get a bit of free labor, and people can take home some custom made plastic. or maybe let people who come and help get first dibs to cheap x-outs from that batch?
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby Leopard » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:35 pm

Do it like the art contests... free labor from any number of skilled or unskilled individuals, pay only the one whose work you like best!

If I get some Gateway in the mail, and I like it more than the Innova, I'll pay ya for it!
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby Pwingles » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:01 pm

I wasnt necessarily saying you have to label them like Innova, im not too sure where that comparison came from but it wasnt my specific post. But to me, planned obsolescence isnt something that easily applies to disc golf solely due to the materials being used and the use they are going to get.

It makes more sense to me (and i think most disc golfers who arent in the know about plastics/molding/etc) to label a product for what it is at the time of sale. Most people understand that the abuse a disc takes is going to influence the flight in the future in some way and arent going to be upset by the disc that flies differently 6 months or a year after they got it. Im stoked you want your disc to perform in a certain way and that youre doing what you think is right to make that happen. I dont see the difference in a disc that flies like you want it when you buy it, and a disc that flies how you want it 6 months after, but they're in that spot you want for most likely the same period of time, call it a sweet spot or w/e except that itll take forever to get the flight you want.

I guess its just a personal preference thing. I'd much rather buy a mold of disc that flies how i want, or close to it, and have a few of them in different stages of wear, the upside of that to me is I start with the stability im looking for and it gets to be less and less until I decide to replace it. The only difference in your line of thinking and mine, is it takes however long of playing with a disc that flies in a way i dont want, to get it that way I do want, then when it does, it will only be that way for however long, then ill need another one. I could cycle them through, but that is potentially a lot of time playing with a disc that flies in a way i dont want just to get a few to that point.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby GatewayDiscSports » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:37 pm

Itchy wrote:
Itchy wrote:
GatewayDiscSports wrote:
Itchy wrote:Are there any stiff HPP Elements? I like Elements and I like HPP plastic, just wish it was stiffer.


There are some fairly stiff pink ones on the shelf right now,, how stiff do you like it?... is outside the rules ok???



Yes, I've been buying the purple/pink ones because they felt the stiffest in the store. I like them firm like the first two discs in this video (first is a S, the second and third are HPP).

I didn't know there were rules about how much flex a disc had to have (hope I haven't put anybody on blast) and I only play for fun, but I'm still picky about my plastic (and some times rubber). If I could get one more stiff one I'd be pretty happy to have the back up.


Not to be pushy, but any chance you've found a stiff Element I can buy off you guys?


I know we have some in boxes up on the shelf from the old runs, they are white or purple and do not have the radius where the rim depth meets thef light plate.

email me directly at david@gdstour.com for the hook up.
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Re: Ask Gateway!

Postby GatewayDiscSports » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:06 pm

Roc Lover wrote:I wasnt necessarily saying you have to label them like Innova, im not too sure where that comparison came from but it wasnt my specific post. But to me, planned obsolescence isnt something that easily applies to disc golf solely due to the materials being used and the use they are going to get.

It makes more sense to me (and i think most disc golfers who arent in the know about plastics/molding/etc) to label a product for what it is at the time of sale. Most people understand that the abuse a disc takes is going to influence the flight in the future in some way and arent going to be upset by the disc that flies differently 6 months or a year after they got it. Im stoked you want your disc to perform in a certain way and that youre doing what you think is right to make that happen. I dont see the difference in a disc that flies like you want it when you buy it, and a disc that flies how you want it 6 months after, but they're in that spot you want for most likely the same period of time, call it a sweet spot or w/e except that itll take forever to get the flight you want.

I guess its just a personal preference thing. I'd much rather buy a mold of disc that flies how i want, or close to it, and have a few of them in different stages of wear, the upside of that to me is I start with the stability im looking for and it gets to be less and less until I decide to replace it. The only difference in your line of thinking and mine, is it takes however long of playing with a disc that flies in a way i dont want, to get it that way I do want, then when it does, it will only be that way for however long, then ill need another one. I could cycle them through, but that is potentially a lot of time playing with a disc that flies in a way i dont want just to get a few to that point.


My email wasn't directed towards anyone specific, the Innova reference is liken to Zerox,,, with 80% of the market share ( and the only ones in big box stores),,, most players only know about innova discs and relate our stuff to theirs. Heck I do it all the time.


Strictly speaking in terms of flex, the discs we make will become more flexible after a few dozen rounds and then remain that way for basically the remainder of its life.
The "zone" that you speak of for a Gateway putter is probably the longest of any non urethane putter on the market.
Again,,,,,The labeling of our discs is much more related to the hardness of the actual polymers used for that run as opposed to just flex.

In hindsight we should probably be using hardness instead of flex with a range of flex within each hardness but it would be difficult trying to keep them all in stock.
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