Discspeed's Bag

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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Tue May 24, 2011 10:23 pm

Apothecary wrote:i appreciate discspeeds disc reviews as well.

but you really should take those reviews with a grain of salt when hes pushing one of his sponsors molds over the competition.


It's not like my sponsors aren't listed in my signature...You are pointing out something very obvious...That someone with a vested interest (however big or small) might find more favor with that company than someone without a vested interest would. Are people not capable of assessing the value of information for themselves? Do I jump all over ever midrange thread saying THE VECTOR IS THE BEST DISC EVER!!!??? No. I gave my honest reviews and moved on. When I see someone is wanting very specifically something like the Vector I might recommend it if someone (like yourself) hasn't already. Do I represent large disc golf entities or draw people into buying the latest high speed driver (CDGS wouldn't mind this)? No...I represent MVP, and when it comes to them, as I've explained to you before, I am biased. I believe these guys are the future of disc golf in the most pure form(quality and advancement of the sport over becoming wealthy) and I will lend them a hand in any way I can, now and most likely a long time to come. I'm still not going to purposefully deceive someone into buying their products as this would be counterproductive to any long term goals of MVP as well as my credibility on these boards.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Apothecary » Tue May 24, 2011 10:38 pm

discspeed wrote: Are people not capable of assessing the value of information for themselves? Do I jump all over ever midrange thread saying THE VECTOR IS THE BEST DISC EVER!!!???


some are and some arent. i intend to inform the people who, in their ignorance, might take your advice and buy a vector from clearwater, only to realize they dont really have much use for an overstable mid.

i think a lot of people dont know about your track record and what you really think about the vector (its a "type 1" (whatever the hell that is) overstable mid, comparable to the aftershock). you go on to say the aftershock and the overstable mid slot in general are useless.

and then you push the vector, one of the most overstable mids on the market.

that contradiction guts your credibility as an objective disc evaluator, imho.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Tue May 24, 2011 11:01 pm

Apothecary wrote:
discspeed wrote: Are people not capable of assessing the value of information for themselves? Do I jump all over ever midrange thread saying THE VECTOR IS THE BEST DISC EVER!!!???


some are and some arent. i intend to inform the people who, in their ignorance, might take your advice and buy a vector from clearwater, only to realize they dont really have much use for an overstable mid.

i think a lot of people dont know about your track record and what you really think about the vector (its a "type 1" (whatever the hell that is) overstable mid, comparable to the aftershock). you go on to say the aftershock and the overstable mid slot in general are useless.

and then you push the vector, one of the most overstable mids on the market.

that contradiction guts your credibility as an objective disc evaluator, imho.



Since I'm sponsored I'm not allowed to ever change my mind or retest a past hypothesis? BTW, I do appreciate actually laying out some kind of comprehensive argument for me to respond to.

I'm really not pushing the Vector on anyone nor have I mischaracterized it as something it's not. I still don't put it in the same category as the Drone/Demon/Gator(useless for most, but not for all (Paul McBeth throws a Gator very well)), and I'm betting others will back me on that as well. This opinion has nothing to do with my sponsors. I've also admitted many times that the Vector brand new is only useful in certain capacities to certain people. I just don't know where you are seeing me being so pushy with the Vectors.

In terms of my own game I've consistently went back and forth for years between carrying a mid more overstable than the Buzzz and not carrying a mid more overstable than the Buzzz evaluating the merits of both approaches. Most of the times I nixed the more overstable mid due to either simply not needing it often enough to be comfortable with or having it fail on me in the exact situation I was carrying it for. In the case of the Aftershock it seemed I could not consistently release it 100% clean (probably something to do with that square bead) all of the time, so into a headwind I'd get a little OAT and a failed shot. I could rip my Buzzz clean with hyzer and penetrate the wind better.

In the case of the Vector my honest attitude from the start has been that I was going to give the disc a very thorough and timely test to find out exactly what it's good at and then evaluate whether or not it will stay with me. I owe my sponsors that much at least for providing me with the discs (wouldn't you do the same?). I'm not through with this process yet by any means. So far I've not had the issues with it that I've had with other similar discs in the past.

And in parting I think you would love the Vector I just beat in, it's a totally different disc from what it was when new. With a little of the stability beat out of it the gyroscopics can take over and keep it super straight in a way that is very Ionesque. I also hope it's a bit of a preview of what MVP's neutral mid is going to fly like whenever it shows up.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Apothecary » Tue May 24, 2011 11:31 pm

discspeed wrote:I just don't know where you are seeing me being so pushy with the Vectors.


discspeed wrote:I threw my beaten Vector much more today and I must say I'm thrilled with how it flies now.


read: theyre pretty useless new, but throw them a lot and they will get better...i promise.

discspeed wrote:
JR wrote:I'm wary of the wind performance of the Hornet but Vector too even the domey more LSS ones. Z Wasps that i have are better for the wind but the lesser fade is a problem if you want to throw flat and have the disc finish left unless you're good at powering down drivers.


My slightly domey 178 Vectors handle wind like champs. I've seen some slight high speed turn, but it's very manageable.


read: if the vector isnt doing what you want it to, youre doing it wrong.

discspeed wrote:I just like to experience what I'm missing sometimes...And I'm also often taken in by "glidey" discs, only to go back to my staples when I have to play in some wind. Now that I have the Vector however, it seems like a better option than the Buzzz or Fuse for holding a line in the wind.


you just compared a vector to a fuse and recommended the former. i dont even know where to begin tearing down that evaluation.

look...the vector is a decent overstable mid. but its not the frontrunner in that category. but then again what would you know about that category? you think overstable mids are useless. :lol:
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Wed May 25, 2011 12:26 am

Everything I said there is true...JR has a weird throw that often results in discs having different HSS and LSS characteristics than other people, so that is possible. Also many people have said that some Vectors are straighter when new (though I did not come across any in the 15 or so I threw), so that's also possible. The ones I have, when new, are quite overstable. This was MVP's decision so that they would have a wind fighter and reduce overlap with their next midrange release. As I've said before as well, when new they are more stable than I would prefer. However, now that I'm getting one broken in I seriously like it better than it's competitors(well, I guess I do need some more throws to say for sure)...Now that last one...I'm not sure what the hell I was talking about, but many variables other than sponsorship could well have been at play there :lol: .
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby JR » Wed May 25, 2011 4:35 am

In the usual twist of irony apothecary should learn from his own words. Integrity is indeed something to strive for.

I'm not sponsored by anyone and belong to a local club that gets discounts from some (don't know which) Finnish stores that's all. With that said i have noticed that many discs (mainly dirvers) seem to be less HSS for many than for me. I don't think there's that much difference in LSS based on the comments of the majority of reviewers to me unless they have big snap. I'm only half hitting. My differing HSS results with drivers may come from plane preservation work for years and intentional years long late acceleration practice. So while i usually can't pivot the disc around the thumb lock i'm not pulling at full speed with the arm starting from the plant. Thus my speed to spin ratio may not be as bad as not getting proper full (i do get some) disc pivot would suggest. That should effect HSS.

I have small hands and either grip or clean release issues at times because this spring was the first time i could use full power to throw a Ranchero DX flat without flipping. I've also had lots of troubles with tall putters. Yesterday a stiff KC worked fine. My throwing arm is injured for life so that may also vary mileage between me and the rest.

Now the meat of my post. There is no single kind of Vector. The domier kind i suppose is the intended shape and flight by the manufacturer competing against Sentinel and the like i suppose. I can't speak for the guys but that's my assumption. There is another kind of Vector in the almost flat topped ones that flies very differently in LSS and distance and similar in HSS. The low topped Vector is the shit. My best D from a domey is about 270' IIRC and i don't like the early fade that is fairly hard. Because it is just too little for short curves and the disc is so fast that the utility going around obstacles flight of the Gator/Zone type of slow very overstable flight achieves the utility functions better. That is not skipping too far on hard surfaces like pulled power drivers often do and making a hard early bend around obstacles. I have three such FH drives on my home course.

The flat Vector record for me is 332' IIRC. It flies way farther straight before starting to fade and when it does it is one tick less LSS than the domey kind. So most Vectors are between good uses (roles) IMO but the flat long straighter one is the longest mid i've thrown.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Wed May 25, 2011 7:36 am

JR wrote:I

Now the meat of my post. There is no single kind of Vector. The domier kind i suppose is the intended shape and flight by the manufacturer competing against Sentinel and the like i suppose. I can't speak for the guys but that's my assumption. There is another kind of Vector in the almost flat topped ones that flies very differently in LSS and distance and similar in HSS. The low topped Vector is the shit. My best D from a domey is about 270' IIRC and i don't like the early fade that is fairly hard. Because it is just too little for short curves and the disc is so fast that the utility going around obstacles flight of the Gator/Zone type of slow very overstable flight achieves the utility functions better. That is not skipping too far on hard surfaces like pulled power drivers often do and making a hard early bend around obstacles. I have three such FH drives on my home course.

The flat Vector record for me is 332' IIRC. It flies way farther straight before starting to fade and when it does it is one tick less LSS than the domey kind. So most Vectors are between good uses (roles) IMO but the flat long straighter one is the longest mid i've thrown.


I agree with your assessment for the most part, although into a headwind I found the domey ones to turn more than the flatter ones. For the record I also have noticed 3 levels in dome height in Vectors...Totally flat, small gradual dome, and poppy top. The totally flat ones are the straightest, but they don't glide as well as the ones with dome. So for me those ones were kind of tricky because if you finesse them they dump as soon as they start to hyzer, but if you throw them hard they hold the line to the ground almost. The small gradual dome ones are my favorite. They are the most HSS of all the Vectors and they are between the other two in terms of LSS. As I mentioned above, the domey ones are about the same HSS as the flat ones, but they are much more LSS.

Dome is only half the story on the Vector though. Weight is a big factor due to the fact that the heavy ones are much more gyroscopic with all the extra grams going to the overmold. With more weighting agent in the overmold I also expect the heavier ones will break in faster. Anyway, the heavier, more gyroscopic Vectors seem to penetrate forward more on the fade if you have the revs to get them up to speed. As I'm breaking in one of my heavies the forward dominant flight is a lot more evident.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby JR » Thu May 26, 2011 3:50 am

I haven't noticed a difference in headwinds between my almost flat and domey Vectors. Each flips a little in medium winds and double in heavy winds where no other mid fares either.

One disclaimer about my results that i thought of after posting my previous post is that i power grip drive with putters and mids. That may account for something. I do get some wobble with mids and putter drives. Not always but too often. It may well be from unclean releases.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Timko » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:42 am

WTF are you throwing?
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:19 pm

Timko wrote:WTF are you throwing?


I guess I have gotten a little lazy on my bag thread...Here goes...

Ions--I've got so many pretty new clears that I'm kind of shaking things up and I'm not sure what is going to stick. My primary throwers and putters are still 175 medium protos because they flip enough to shape lines and throw with hyzer. All of the newer ones are stable enough to pair with my protos really well.

177 Orange GL Fuse--Original Fuse that has broken into total flippiness. It's like my buddies beat 10x Roc...actually, no it's not because that disc just broke on him!! I'm glad I get the flight without having to worry about that nonsense.
177 Gold GL Fuse--New for straight shots without much flip
177 Orange FR Vector--Seasoned to just a step above the new Fuse. It flips a little on hard throws, but mainly just holds whatever it's given on shots 250-300'.
178 Orange FR Vector--Seasoned naturally...has lost all its fade on hard throws, but still doesn't turn. I use this one for most hyzers as it flies true without fighting me
178 Orange FR Vector--New with some wicked LSS for wind and situations where I need to lean on the stability

175 Orange GL River--Still pretty new, this is my shapeable FWY driver, or pretty much my less stable/more glidey PD counterpart
175 Pink GL XXX--Overstable spike/utility disc. More versatile and longer than the Opto version.

175 Orange SPD--Original SPD, now broken in. Has high speed turn, but still fades as well
175 Yellow champystar PD--Seasoned and like longer Teebird
175 Yellow production CPD--like my champystart, but with much stronger fade, hyzers and wind

175 Black Tourney Sword--hyzer flip and turnover distance
175 Cobalt VIP Sword--deflashed and getting seasoned, starting to get some high speed turn, straight and versatile
175 Cobalt VIP Sword--brand new with flash for wind/more stability than my other one
175 Pink Z NukeOS--Fast and overstable for wind D and wind hyzers

I also carry around a bunch of extra Ions of varying run, weight, and stiffness, a couple pretty beat PPDs, new yellow champystar PD, 168 NukeOS, 174 Z Nuke, CFR CPDs for rare situations, new courses, practice, and for breaking in. I'm sure the Axis is going to go in there as soon as I get some. It's nice rolling a stroller...
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby beatroc » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:38 am

No Buzzz's eh?
Rattler - Ion
Roc
Cyclone
TD - PD - Firechicken

http://frolfware.com
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:06 am

beatroc wrote:No Buzzz's eh?


The Buzzz doesn't play that well with others...The Fuse is better for touch shots and the Vector is better for power shots/wind. I still have room for some Buzzz type lines, but compared to the Fuse/Vector the Buzzz needs a different release speed. When I had them all in the bag I could really feel this and it was causing some mistakes. I'm hoping when I get the Axis, with it's small bead and increased gyroscopics it will fit better.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Pwingles » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:32 pm

In a few months id really like to read an in depth comparison of the buzzz vs. axis, mostly curious if an avid buzzz'ist can in fact change.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:10 pm

Roc Lover wrote:In a few months id really like to read an in depth comparison of the buzzz vs. axis, mostly curious if an avid buzzz'ist can in fact change.


Chad R of MVP and I are both huge Buzzz fans, and we pretty much shared the same ideas on how to make it better. As it stands, the Buzzz is not only a beadless Wasp/Roc, but a more gyroscopic beadless Wasp/Roc due to the extra plastic in the nose. I've thrown the Buzzz long enough to know it's weaknesses as well as it's strengths, and I expect the Axis to maximize on those strengths while minimizing the weaknesses. Time will tell...
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:28 pm

I just added the Quasar instead of the new Sword. It is faring much better in moderate head and crosswinds. It's also nice for long straight shots that finish hard both FH and BH.
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