Discspeed's Bag

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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby beatroc » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:11 pm

Roc Lover wrote:In a few months id really like to read an in depth comparison of the buzzz vs. axis, mostly curious if an avid buzzz'ist can in fact change.

Discspeed, I would really love to read an in depth comparison once you've had the chance to get a good feel for the axis.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:38 pm

beatroc wrote:
Roc Lover wrote:In a few months id really like to read an in depth comparison of the buzzz vs. axis, mostly curious if an avid buzzz'ist can in fact change.

Discspeed, I would really love to read an in depth comparison once you've had the chance to get a good feel for the axis.



I'm sure that I will be breaking that down fully. One of the reason I'm so excited is because the Buzzz was both mine and Chad's favorite midrange. We had talked at length many times about what makes it so good and how it could possibly be made better. We agreed that the Buzzz has some weaknesses, mostly related to speed and nose angle sensitivity. It's speed and low profile create a high cruising speed for a mid, which is fine for shots on the long end for a mid, but makes it struggle when thrown with less speed. It's nose angle sensitivity is what makes it kind of a one trick pony...Nose neutral/slighly nose down it flies straight, but too much nose down and it cuts too hard and loses altitude fast, on hyzers and annies. And with a little too much nose up it stalls and fades. We also talked about possible ways to fix these issues so that we would truly have the perfect mid. From what I've heard from Chad as he's testing the Axis, it sounds like he's really done it.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Fightingthetide » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:56 pm

discspeed wrote:It's speed and low profile create a high cruising speed for a mid, which is fine for shots on the long end for a mid, but makes it struggle when thrown with less speed.


I want to talk about the speed issue for a second. On your review of the Vector, you said that it is glideless and way overstable when thrown too slow. This is due to the overmold process, and the shape. With the shape aside, the overmold requires a certain amount of spin to be of use. Otherwise it only becomes extra weight on the rim that adds stability. Is that correct? If so, how would an overmold disc such as the Axis be able to retain neutral flight during a slower throw?
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Hyzerline49 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:23 pm

sorry to barge in... but what does a sword throw like? i just wanted to ask on this thread because i know that discspeed gives some very in depth descriptions of discs.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Fightingthetide » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:40 pm

Hyzerline49 wrote:sorry to barge in... but what does a sword throw like? i just wanted to ask on this thread because i know that discspeed gives some very in depth descriptions of discs.


Not to answer for him...but he posts reviews on the Clearwater Disc Golf Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_ ... 6014962754
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Hyzerline49 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:04 pm

alright thanks... that was pretty damn descriptive! sounds like something i might be interested in
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:07 am

Fightingthetide wrote:
discspeed wrote:It's speed and low profile create a high cruising speed for a mid, which is fine for shots on the long end for a mid, but makes it struggle when thrown with less speed.


I want to talk about the speed issue for a second. On your review of the Vector, you said that it is glideless and way overstable when thrown too slow. This is due to the overmold process, and the shape. With the shape aside, the overmold requires a certain amount of spin to be of use. Otherwise it only becomes extra weight on the rim that adds stability. Is that correct? If so, how would an overmold disc such as the Axis be able to retain neutral flight during a slower throw?



I'm pretty sure that I wrote that fairly early in my testing of brand new first run Vectors. Some of those came out more overstable than MVP really intended due to high domes. After testing a bunch of different colors/weights of Vectors I settled on some heavy ones with gradual and even domes. I reported to MVP that I thought these ones flew the best, and they agreed and have been vigilant in making sure all Vectors made since have that gradual and even dome. These don't have the extreme overstability issue when thrown under 250'.

Regarding the weight distribution/overmold...The most overstable Vectors I've thrown were between 174-176. This is because MVP tweaks weights +/- 5g by adding weight to the overmold. This means the max weight Vectors that I ended up liking best because they glided better and faded more forward over a variety of release speeds are actually more gyroscopic with more weight in the overmold. So the overmold helps the disc fly straight over a larger range of speeds rather than making the disc more overstable when thrown with less speed. At some very low speed it probably does hold true that the overmold will make the disc more overstable, but this would most certainly be a speed much lower than the disc is designed for. For example, I putt with Ions and if I give them almost no spin they drop earlier/are more overstable than say a Wizard or Aviar. However, with just a little spin they glide farther and straighter than those other discs.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Fightingthetide » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:26 pm

Thinking of a gyroscope spinning and standing upright on a table: eventually it slows down and falls over. I was just wondering at speed / amount of snap the overmold would act like this and cause overstability. I guess it makes sense that you probably wouldn't throw a disc without spin (but you could), and especially an overmold disc - you would want to utilize it's strengths and thus you would want to make sure it has enough spin...no brainer.

I was just thinking of a subtle turnover shot through a narrow, wooded tunnel that needs to keep turning right (RHBH) and level off to flat before landing near 250'. This is one hole on a local course. Too much anny and the disc hits a tree on the right side of the fairway...not enough and it stalls out and fades too soon. The problem I run into with my Buzzz SS is that it likes to glide past the basket with it's speed and gyroscopic properties. If I throw it with less snap and speed, therefore keeping it from gliding too far, it tends to stall out too soon. So all that to say, if the Axis has more gyroscopic properties than a Buzzz, would it hold that line just as well even at slower speeds, thus keeping it from gliding too far? You don't have to answer this, because it might just require me getting one and trying it. I just really enjoy thinking about the physics behind flight.

Thanks for your input again on the overmold process. I can't wait to get some reviews when they ship out.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:35 pm

Fightingthetide wrote:Thinking of a gyroscope spinning and standing upright on a table: eventually it slows down and falls over. I was just wondering at speed / amount of snap the overmold would act like this and cause overstability. I guess it makes sense that you probably wouldn't throw a disc without spin (but you could), and especially an overmold disc - you would want to utilize it's strengths and thus you would want to make sure it has enough spin...no brainer.

I was just thinking of a subtle turnover shot through a narrow, wooded tunnel that needs to keep turning right (RHBH) and level off to flat before landing near 250'. This is one hole on a local course. Too much anny and the disc hits a tree on the right side of the fairway...not enough and it stalls out and fades too soon. The problem I run into with my Buzzz SS is that it likes to glide past the basket with it's speed and gyroscopic properties. If I throw it with less snap and speed, therefore keeping it from gliding too far, it tends to stall out too soon. So all that to say, if the Axis has more gyroscopic properties than a Buzzz, would it hold that line just as well even at slower speeds, thus keeping it from gliding too far? You don't have to answer this, because it might just require me getting one and trying it. I just really enjoy thinking about the physics behind flight.

Thanks for your input again on the overmold process. I can't wait to get some reviews when they ship out.


I think the flat wing on the Buzzz SS is the culprit here...That design is more aerodynamic and holds speed longer into the flight than a concave wing...It also has no stabilizers to keep it controlled when it turns and an ability to pull out of a deeper turn. Flat wings are also more speed sensitive meaning they can be overstable, straight, or understable with just a little change in speed. I know Chad wanted the straight flight and glide to be great on the Axis, but he didn't want to choose a design that would limit predictability. The Fuse(slightly concave wing) also proves that a disc doesn't have to have a flat wing to have great glide, and even though it's understable it is still more predictable imo than a flat winged disc. With it's Buzzzish concave wing, tiny bead, and gyroscopic weight distribution the Axis should be less speed sensitive than the Buzzz ss or even the regular Buzzz.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby jubuttib » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:04 pm

discspeed wrote:Flat wings are also more speed sensitive meaning they can be overstable, straight, or understable with just a little change in speed.
On this point I have to bring up the MD2 and JOKERi. Both have a flat wing (and a blunt nose) and the JOKERi is famous for it's very high HSS and wind resistance, and the ability to keep that HSS while losing LSS. Now, I didn't really think my MD2s could handle much wind (I was basing this assumption on my older, sharp nosed MD2s from the first run), but I still took my C-MD2s out to the field on a windy day (very gusty, wind speeds @ 30 mph gusts and 12 mph constant winds). They were totally unfazed by even the strongest headwinds. Even on throws where the wind speed changed dramatically two to three times during the flight (going from the 12 mph normal wind to the 30 mph gusts) they still held a straight and true line all the way. My C-MD2s are not those overstable ones, they fly very straight in calm conditions and hold anhyzers great. And I suspect that the only reason why my new blunt nosed P-MD2s and D-MD2s don't fare just as well in the wind (they do turn a bit when the wind kicks up) is the combination of bigger dome and slightly lower PLH.

Anyway, even the new P-Lines are way more wind resistant than the old P-Lines, and the flat wing shape and PLH is identical. The blunt nose must help, because clearly flat wings can fly consistently over a wide speed range, even in the wind.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:20 pm

Blunt noses do help...As do stabilizers (like the MD2's minibead). Does the Jokeri have a bead/stabilizer?

I just looked at a pic and saw that it has no bead. Did I also detect a hint of concavity?
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby jubuttib » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:51 pm

No bead or anything like that, and no concavity on any of mine.
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby Fightingthetide » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:48 pm

discspeed wrote:
Fightingthetide wrote:Thinking of a gyroscope spinning and standing upright on a table: eventually it slows down and falls over. I was just wondering at speed / amount of snap the overmold would act like this and cause overstability. I guess it makes sense that you probably wouldn't throw a disc without spin (but you could), and especially an overmold disc - you would want to utilize it's strengths and thus you would want to make sure it has enough spin...no brainer.

I was just thinking of a subtle turnover shot through a narrow, wooded tunnel that needs to keep turning right (RHBH) and level off to flat before landing near 250'. This is one hole on a local course. Too much anny and the disc hits a tree on the right side of the fairway...not enough and it stalls out and fades too soon. The problem I run into with my Buzzz SS is that it likes to glide past the basket with it's speed and gyroscopic properties. If I throw it with less snap and speed, therefore keeping it from gliding too far, it tends to stall out too soon. So all that to say, if the Axis has more gyroscopic properties than a Buzzz, would it hold that line just as well even at slower speeds, thus keeping it from gliding too far? You don't have to answer this, because it might just require me getting one and trying it. I just really enjoy thinking about the physics behind flight.

Thanks for your input again on the overmold process. I can't wait to get some reviews when they ship out.


I think the flat wing on the Buzzz SS is the culprit here...That design is more aerodynamic and holds speed longer into the flight than a concave wing...It also has no stabilizers to keep it controlled when it turns and an ability to pull out of a deeper turn. Flat wings are also more speed sensitive meaning they can be overstable, straight, or understable with just a little change in speed. I know Chad wanted the straight flight and glide to be great on the Axis, but he didn't want to choose a design that would limit predictability. The Fuse(slightly concave wing) also proves that a disc doesn't have to have a flat wing to have great glide, and even though it's understable it is still more predictable imo than a flat winged disc. With it's Buzzzish concave wing, tiny bead, and gyroscopic weight distribution the Axis should be less speed sensitive than the Buzzz ss or even the regular Buzzz.


Sounds like I should be saving some money for a few Axi...Axis's...Axes...plural for Axis? :D
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby discspeed » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:02 pm

jubuttib wrote:No bead or anything like that, and no concavity on any of mine.


Come to think of it, flat wings can be overstable if angled enough to raise the PLH (XXX is obvious example).
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Re: Discspeed's Bag

Postby jubuttib » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:19 am

Fightingthetide wrote:Sounds like I should be saving some money for a few Axi...Axis's...Axes...plural for Axis? :D
Axes.
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