Using nothing but high-tech plastic?

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Using nothing but high-tech plastic?

Postby UpFromTheAshes » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:38 am

Hi guys, newbie here.

Would it be feasible to have your whole bag full of champion/Z plastic? I'm thinking that if all of my discs were made of durable plastic that wore slowly, then I would have time to get used to the flight characteristics of each disc as it was designed to fly, rather than having to "relearn" how each disc flies as it gets worn. (not to mention not having to replace DX discs all the time). Would I be handicapping myself if I did such a thing?

Question 2: what is the straightest champion/Z driver out there? (I have power in the 300'-350' range)
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Postby Jobuu » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:33 pm

I dont see why not. If you're sure your really into disc golf and the extra price of the champion/Z plastic doesnt matter....

Champion Stingray for right turns
Z XL for straight
Champion Valkerie or Beast is pretty straight too
Champion Shark or Z MRV for mid range
Z magnet or Z puttr for putts

You can do it but some discs you cant get in Champ such as a Roc. After finally picking one up, I dont think i could live without one.

PS stability can varry quite a bit between plastics so you may want to experiment.
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Postby garublador » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:06 pm

I have about that much distance, so I guess I'll chime in. In general, the candy plastics seem to be shorter and more overstable than their lower priced counterparts, so keep that in mind when choosing the discs and weights. You will be handycapping yourself to a point because of the lesser distance you can get with the candy discs, but if you gain confidence by using candy discs you may end up ahead.

I've found that, unfortunately, the hardest thing to find in champion/Z type plastic is a straight, control driver. I haven't tried a whole lot of them out, but I'd imagine discs like the Leopard, Cheetah, Gazelle, Sabre, Teebird TL, XL and XS (among others) would be good candidates. You'll probably have the best luck with a hyzer flip type line for any of these since they might be a little high speed understable and low speed overstable in champion type plastic.

Pure distance discs, like the Beast and Flash have worked well for me in high-end plastic, though. For me, the types of shots where I'd use these are the ones where I have the highest chance of hurting a disc and require less accuracy than a straight, control driver. The Flash has been noticibly more understable than the Beast, but also longer. I think the Beast has been more predictable, though.

I throw a candy Gremlin for my midrange shots and while it may be a bit overstable while new, it gets to be a very straight midrange that handles a headwind well. I believe that there are less overstable candy midrange discs on the market (that are in production, too) that should fit about slot in stability. The Wasp, Buzzz and Breeze come to mind from Discraft. The Spider, Cobra and Panther seem to be decent midrange discs from Innova that come in candy plastic, too. I've been experimenting with the Millennium Aurora MS and have a QMS version as well. I'm finding that I'm having some trouble getting a good release (deficiency in my technique), but when I do get a good throw they go very straight.

Personally, I don't like candy discs for putting. I don't like the way they feel for putting and it seems to me that they hyzer off too much for my tastes. I have friends who love them for putting, too, so it's really up to the player. However, for short drives or long upshots a lot can be said for candy discs. The added overstability can make it easier to get a gradual left turn and they can work well in the wind.

For overstable drivers, I think candy plastic discs work great. They tend to take extra abuse because of the way they land and extra abuse can cause them to be less overstable wich can defeat the purpose of the disc. I'll defanitely admit that an overstable driver broken in to the point where it is stable can be a nice thing to have, though.

I've found that I have the best luck with discs I'm the most familiar with, so if you can get familiar with a bag full of cany discs, you'll probably find success. It's probably a worth while experiment (if you have the money) to try an all candy bag just to see what it's like, but I wouldn't rule out other types of plastic forever. I know on a more open course I'd much rather have a bag of low level plastic even though I normally carry some candy discs. However, on a wooded course I'm much more comfortable throwing discs I'm not worried about damaging.
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Postby I_Like_My_Buzzz » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:47 pm

Actually, Innova did make a Champion Roc this year for the 2004 USDGC (United States Disc Golf Championships). They sold out of them very fast. They also made a Champion Edition Glo Roc this year for the same event (sold much slower, but are still gone). You can find them on E-bay. The 2001 CE Roc is the best one, but costs around $125.00. I have thrown one before and they are sweet. Stable, but not too overstable. Not sure if the 2002 and 2003 Rocs are CE or Champion. Anyone... Bueller... Bueller...? Nevermind...

As far as straight drivers go, I suggest a Champion Edition Leopard! Wonderful disc, but costs a bit. I like my Z Wildcats too (kinda like a Tee Bird, but the Champion TeeBirds are way over stable for me). You could also check out a CFR TL! These Champion Fund Raiser discs in the TeeBird Less stable mold are nice and straight. If you are having trouble with premium plastic being too over stable, try lighter weights. Works well for me!
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Postby jimmythegroundhog » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:24 pm

For me the straightest driver is the Gateway Sabre. Get it in E plastic and you will not be sorry
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Re: Using nothing but high-tech plastic?

Postby Blake_T » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:43 pm

UpFromTheAshes wrote:Would I be handicapping myself if I did such a thing?


simple answer, yes.

more complicated answer... your second question about what is straightest... the reality of it, there really aren't any champion/z discs that are "out of the box" straight. there really aren't any straight discs i like when new and it takes a while for me to break them in to how i like them. you're actually going to go through the same issues with predictability when breaking in a champion/z disc, only it will take much longer to get it controllable and seasoned. as you wear the disc in, it will become slightly less high speed stable but its fade component will also occur later in its flight. the second part of this is that champion/z plastic generally doesn't fly as far, often on a magnitude of a 25% difference. it's also easier to finesse standard plastic discs as they are a lot more responsive in their flight.

standard plastics do not really need to be "relearned" as the break in is usually fairly gradual, and throwing it with slightly more hyzer after a big tree whack is often sufficient.

to answer the other question, a broken in Z XL (a Z Xpress is straighter when new) or champion leopard are both fairly straight. unfortunately, the teebird, which is my #1 recommendation for straight drivers in DX plastic is not a disc i like at all in champion plastic as it requires a lot of abuse to break it in (it's too overstable when new) and it is at least 50' shorter than the standard plastic version thrown with the same power/line.
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Re: Using nothing but high-tech plastic?

Postby garublador » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:01 am

Blake_T wrote:unfortunately, the teebird, which is my #1 recommendation for straight drivers in DX plastic is not a disc i like at all in champion plastic as it requires a lot of abuse to break it in (it's too overstable when new) and it is at least 50' shorter than the standard plastic version thrown with the same power/line.


I'll second that about the Champion Teebird as well. I found a beat up, 166g Champion Teebird (I normally throw ~170g drivers) a while ago and it was way too overstable to be a good straight driver. I'd like to try a CFR Teebird TL, but I have a hard time justifying paying $25 for a disc I'll probably lose.
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Postby I_Like_My_Buzzz » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:45 am

I have seen huge distance with that Champion TeeBird! One guy on my card at my home course tourney used it as his main driver. He out drove me every time, and it flew straight for him! The worst part was this "guy" was only 14 years old and playing advanced! Good thing I have my Buzzz!

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Ken Climo throws Champion TeeBirds! Of course he has all the other plastics too. You name it and he has it or can get it! He sticks to three or four molds (TeeBird, Roc, Aviar, and maybe a Firebird, that's all! He has several in different plastic and different levels of "broken in"). That might be a good way to go.
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Postby Jobuu » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:57 pm

hmm if DX means that much more distance i think i'll start trying them. how does elite x compare then ?
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Postby Blake_T » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 am

I_Like_My_Buzzz wrote:I have seen huge distance with that Champion TeeBird! One guy on my card at my home course tourney used it as his main driver. He out drove me every time, and it flew straight for him! The worst part was this "guy" was only 14 years old and playing advanced!


there are people who can throw champ teebirds far. a buddy of mine who throws dx and kc teebirds 440' on avg only puts champ teebirds about 400' on avg. i throw dx teebirds more like 360-380', and rarely do i make champion teebirds go over 330-340 unless i throw them annie.
i have seen people throw them 500+, but i consider them exceptions and not the norm.

to jobuu, another friend of mine who peaked at around 430' with champ teebirds switched over to dx teebirds and found himself throwing 460-480'.
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Postby Kenja » Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:16 pm

I agree with using DX plastic for midrange/putters but I have to dissent on using DX drivers. I use CFR TLs for my straight driver (hyzer-flip) and max out at 375' -- I can get more D with faster wider-winged drivers but less accuracy/consistency. The exception is the Flash: very impressive so far -- not crazy overstable like a Tsunami, not impossible to grip like the Gateway Illusion and not flippy/flexy like the Orc/Beast/Valk family. It really does fly like a longer, faster T-bird. :twisted:

Its true that DX drivers don't fade nearly as hard and glide better but they are also less durable (especially in sharp-nosed driver molds), less wind-resistant and therefore less predictable off the teepad. On most courses, 325-375 feet of controlled D will get you closer to the basket than 400+ feet of mis-drives.

CFR-TLs are somewhat hard to find and pricey. If you do some hunting online you should be able to find some disc golf clubs selling them for under $20 shipped. I cannot recommend the Pro TL as the one's I've tried were unable to withstand a single tree hit without major changes in flight characteristics. If they truly are a blend of the pro and champion plastics I'm not impressed. Allegedly the newest run/mold of Champion Teebirds are extremely good -- I haven't tried them but the thing to look for is clear, non-pearly plastic (no weighting agent) and lettering on the bottom will read RANCHO CUCAMONGA CAL instead of CA.

If you're willing to experiment try the JLS or the XL -- both are very straight and long when thrown hyzer-flip. I've found that the Gateway Sabre is also very straight but lacks glide -- it must be thrown higher than other straight drivers to get the same D. I'd argue that any disc can be thrown arrow straight if you're willing to learn it but I've spent long enough working on my drive that any disc that I have to take a radically different line on is not going to make it into my bag. :wink:
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