Made shot or no?

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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby veganray » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:27 pm

Wyno wrote:This doesn't sound like a tournament...
You are quite blessed to play only in tournaments where there is no wind to blow leaves, paper, or toasters into baskets during play and no trees to potentially fall & become entangled with chains. Much of the country does not share your good fortune.

Wyno wrote:actually, adding "solely" to the existing wording is sufficient, since they already defined the chains and the inside of the basket as good.
Let's examine that assertion.

"The existing wording":
PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf wrote:In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


"Adding 'solely' to the existing wording":
Wyno wrote:In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest solely supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


Wyno's "sufficient" rewording still disallows DROTs, disallows discs coming to rest on other discs, disallows discs partially supported by leaves, paper, or toasters, disallows discs partially supported by debris entangled within the chains, and disallows discs that a subset of a group or a single PDGA stooge claim entered the target in an unapproved manner, though they have, indeed, "come to rest solely supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray".

Seems a bit insufficient to me. :roll:
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:51 pm

Never get into a semantic debate with VR.
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby Wyno » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:26 pm

Wy not? He's such a pushover :wink:

The rules don't specify, but seem to assume, a clean and non-broken basket.
The rulebook generally seems to establishes a standard, then sensibly leave a lot up to the TD, group decisions and courtesy.
So if you don't know how to hole out because of something like this, ask your local PDGA stooge.

So, when there's a tree in the basket, see above!
Now there's an exception of the kind no sane person would want a specific rule for :)

And if my drive shanked off a toaster left in the basket, I'd probably remove the fucking toaster and retee!
That's if I wasn't caught up in a discussion about semantics :-)

veganray wrote:Wyno's "sufficient" rewording still disallows DROTs,
Sure, I don't think they should be allowed
veganray wrote:disallows discs coming to rest on other discs
No, up to the group including you. Would you make it a fault to put while other's discs are in the basket?
veganray wrote:disallows discs partially supported by leaves, paper, or toasters, disallows discs partially supported by debris entangled within the chains
Nope, up to the group again see above
veganray wrote: and disallows discs that a subset of a group or a single PDGA stooge claim entered the target in an unapproved manner, though they have, indeed, "come to rest solely supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray".
I don't have a big problem with that either, but it should like any other situation be left up to the group vote - or your local PDGA stooge :-)
Also, I think a shot that goes in the side is a faulty shot and should be called. What makes it absurd are the tech specs allowing baskets where this is possible.

That seems a bit insufficient to me. :wink:
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby Dogma » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:54 pm

I think any disc that comes to rest off the ground supported by any part of the basket, chains, or pole (not ground sleeve, or as VR argued the base of a portable) should count as holed out. DROT? Counts. Disc stuck in the side of the basket? Counts. Disc hanging on outside of basket? Counts. Branch, condom, or toaster in the basket and your disc lands on top of it? Counts. None of those things happens often enough to matter. Certainly not often enough to justify an arbitrary rule that requires pictures and diagrams and four pages of debate to be understood. And I haven't come across someone new to the game yet who upon learning that DROT does not count had any reaction other than "WTF? That's stupid."
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby veganray » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:08 pm

Wyno wrote:leave a lot up to the TD (and) group decisions
Wyno wrote:up to the group
Wyno wrote:up to the group again
Wyno wrote:it should like any other situation be left up to the group vote

Ahhh, the old "leave it up to the group" fallback. It's so much easier to whip that one out and wash your hands of responsibility than to exercise some intellectual rigor & develop a concisely-worded rule that covers every conceivable eventuality, allows those that you want to allow, and disallows those that you don't. You're a man after the pDGA's heart, Wyno, seemingly perfectly suited for duty on the Rules Committee, chairing the BOD, or even as the absolute elite of the inane leadership of the org, a paid consultant.

Why not just take that "leave it up to the group" philosophy to its logical conclusion & burn the whole damned rulebook, leaving every decision to the whim of three to five schmucks, each with a deeply vested interest in the matter to be decided? "What? Allowing such a cockamamie scheme makes a mockery of the whole idea of competition and makes our beloved game look like a freaking joke," you may say. "Allowing competitors to arbitrarily rule on an absolutely fundamental aspect of the game without explicit, crystal-clear direction from a codified set of rules is just the type of hippy-dippy insanity that keeps our glorified drinking game from reaching the lofty heights of 'sport' that I so desire, including that prime-time ESPN coverage & Winter Olympics inclusion about which I've been dreamily - and creamily - fantasizing on DGCR for months now."

To that, I would reply, "Hear, hear!"
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby Bombmk » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:18 am

While agree to some extent with you small dialogue there, I would say this rule is rather clear as it is.

If its in the basket and entered the correct way it counts. If not, it doesn't. If you didn't see it enter, you assume it entered correctly. Whats the difference between it entering the wrong way and someone not in the group picking it up and putting it in?

You can have the same situation in ball golf. If the ball is moved by an outside agency it should be repositioned. But if you don't know that it was, you play it as you find it.

So on a blind hole your ball can stop on the green, x m from the hole. A seagull then picks it up and drops it in the hole. If it is seen, it should be replaced, if not its in the cup. Hasn't stopped ball golf from getting exposure.

I do, though, agree in general that the whole "leave it to the group" part of the rules is causing the sport some issues, when viewed in the professional sports light. But thats mostly because the participants way too often extrapolate it in the wrong direction and not so much a problem with the rules themselves, I believe.
The rules ARE pretty clear, imho. The problem is the "Footfault!" "No way!" situation. What other way to deal with that, than asking the players to "vote" on it?

In ball golf, where I played at least, the other players expected you to watch them like a hawk and call them on any infringement. At any level. In disc golf you are the grumpy weird dude dispensing bad vibes when you do.

But how do you change that attitude? Because you will never get around relying on the group for rule calls.
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby 7ontheline » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:45 am

Bombmk wrote: In ball golf, where I played at least, the other players expected you to watch them like a hawk and call them on any infringement. At any level. In disc golf you are the grumpy weird dude dispensing bad vibes when you do.


At any level? Ball golf ain't NASCAR, or soccer, or most other team sports where if you don't get caught cheating now and again then you ain't tryin' hard enough. I recall a recent PGA event where a golfer moved a twig during his backswing and called a stroke on himself. It cost him hundreds of thousands and I'd bet no one would have known any different if he hadn't penalized himself.

Got Integrity? Ultimate Frisbee used to and my new found friends that I play DG with seem to. Those that do cheat aren't my friends and I'd rather cut the grass than spend my valuable time with those losers. Not that long ago someone told me I was footfaulting on my putts. I didn't take it as them being grumpy but instead just trying to help a brother out. I appreciated them teaching a noobie as their delivery wasn't stroke asshole you footfaulted.

Anyone want observers or rules officals in every group making the calls in tourneys? That's where Ultimate is headed and the "Spirit of the Game" will soon be lost forever. The big sponsers love it to keep the game moving and make what they feel is more legit than letting ladies and gentlemen resolve their own disputes.
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby veganray » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:01 am

7ontheline wrote:Anyone want observers or rules officals in every group making the calls in tourneys? That's where Ultimate is headed and the "Spirit of the Game" will soon be lost forever. The big sponsers (sic) love it to keep the game moving and make what they feel is more legit than letting ladies and gentlemen resolve their own disputes.

Like a blind squirrel finding a nut, it seems that you've lurched into vocalizing one of the greatest problems (arguably the greatest) facing the game of disc golf today. The ESPN/Olympics/bigtime pro $$$ faction wants to aggressively court those big sponsors and are prepared to twist & crunch the game as we know it to land 'em, even if that means abandoning years of history & tradition, including the very vibrant "spirit of the game" that has enlivened disc golf since its humble beginnings. The off-the-radar/party-on-dude/recreational status quo faction fiercely clings to history & tradition, especially "spirit of the game". These two factions are like oil & water, and the schism between the two will inevitably lead to a fracture in the games governing body. Right now, the two factions are somewhat equally represented in the pDGA's leadership, but the former seems to be subsuming the latter bit-by-bit, year-by-year. Whether or not that faction will eventually dominate (and whether or not that is a good thing for the game if it does) is up for debate, but mark my words that this central problem will get much worse & its debate will get much more vitriolic before it is resolved.
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby TOURNEYPLAYER » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:03 pm

whoah. this was an interesting read. :shock:
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby 7ontheline » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:01 pm

You don't know me VR because this squirrel is only blind in the right eye. I've been hucking plastic competitively for over 20 years and have seen the same evolution of my first flying disc love, Ultimate. Thanks for the vocabulary lesson but in the words of Malcolm X allow me to talk right down to earth in a language that everybody here can easily understand. I've found in sports, as in life, dollars and winning too often cloud the difference between right and wrong.

Anyway, here's the preface from the lastest rules of Ultimate formerly governed by the Ultimate Players Association and now by the business of Ulitmate, USA Ultimate.

Home>Programs and Resources>Officiating and Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11th Edition Rules
These rules contain embedded hovering definiitions as well as official Standing Rules Committee annotations of commonly misunderstood rules. Please send any feedback on this page to webmaster@usaultimate.org. A printable PDF version of the rules is also available.

Preface
The Official Rules of Ultimate 11th Edition describes how the game is played. It is assumed that no player will intentionally violate the rules; thus there are no harsh penalties for inadvertent infractions, but rather a method for resuming play in a manner that simulates what most likely would have occurred absent the infraction. In Ultimate, an intentional infraction is considered cheating and a gross offense against the spirit of sportsmanship. Often a player is in a position to gain an advantage by committing an infraction, but that player is morally bound to abide by the rules. The integrity of Ultimate depends on each player's responsibility to uphold the Spirit of the Game™, and this responsibility should remain paramount.
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby veganray » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:18 pm

I am an old Ultimate player, too, and quite well-versed in the rules of the game. Thanx for the refresher, though.

Just as an aside, how would you parallel the evolution & eventual demise of the UPA to the former (and perhaps impending latter) of the pDGA, keeping in mind the two factions I defined above & their relative "pull" in each org?
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby 7ontheline » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:20 pm

Sorry VR but I don't think I have the perspective to compare the two in depth. DG is a step ahead of Ultimate as there are pros cashing checks for playing and marketing DG. It wasn't until recently that I saw the tension between the take it to the higher level vs. the keep it off the radar DG crowds. I was lurking in the off-topic "Guys" DGCR thread and the guys were worried about where folks like Avery are trying to take DG by making a documentary (I'm ASSuming thats correct as I didn't read the entire sophmoric thread.) I see it as Avery is doing his own thing. I say let everyone do their own thing and come to their own conclusions but that doesn't preclude everyone from trying to influence everyone else if they so desire. I also say that the Pros DGers I've met and heard on video represent themselves and the sport very well.

I've been in the DG community for almost a year and have gotten to know several die hard DGers in the Mid-South. Not once has anyone I've met face to face mentioned that Disc Golf wasn't moving quickly enough to get to a bigger audience OR shouldn't be looking for million dollars sponsers like the PGA does because it may spoil the game. I'm currently am adv. masters so no matter how well I do at this weekend's tourney, I'm not quitting my day job. It could be possible that the Pro flights talk non-stop about wanting to "be like Mike"(that's another story) when amongst themselves but don't discuss it around my "dead money" at leagues. :roll: In Ultimate the players vote and elect the people they want to represent them. If the majority had voted to elect Joe Somebody and Joe's agenda was to keep the game the status quo then the UPA might still be leading Ultimate. It seems the majority today want to be the next FEFA so the folks working for USA Ultimate put on the captain's hat and steer the boat towards were ever the money tells them to go.

It occurs to me that the millionaires killing golf balls on Sunday tv has lead to the development of some kick ass technology that has really helped my enjoyment of ball golf. I'd bet that with more money in our sport there will be more competition, more R&D, better baskets, more courses with cement teeboxes, signs, and other cool stuff like chicks in beer carts. If I were a talent like Seppo Paju and had a vested interest in growing the business then I'd try to grow the business; even if it meant helping shankers like myself pick out a go to driver under speed 9.

I'm five outta of the lead and gotta get some rest.
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby unclemercy » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:13 pm

ive heard there are plans to revisit this rule. can anyone confirm or deny?

ive always thought this was the worst rule (change) in the history of the game. if a disc ends up in the basket it should count. if there are situations that arent ideal that could come up like wedgies or pass thrus then its the target thats broken not the rule. the biggest ever present potential problem is it leaves interpretation open to the individual some who will see it go in some who wont and some who will see it and say they didnt or not see it and say they did. im still embarrassed for whoever thought this was a good or necessary idea.

on another note i had a jumper hit the chain holder on the support of a mach three new and swing around to come to rest on the upturn of the s-hook for a two. id never seen such a thing so i took pictures.

speaking of pictures chuck that putting tree picture is awful. imo you should have used more orange discs.
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Re: Made shot or no?

Postby unclemercy » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:57 pm

he shoots. he scores.

Image

Image
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