Throwing High with Nose Down

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Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Crosseyed0811 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:12 pm

I've never been able to grasp the concept of throwing high with nose down. How do you go about teaching someone to do this? Any time I try to throw with any height on the disc I get nose up, and I cannot seem to fix it. Are there any drills or excercises out there or anything? I'm struggling on getting the nose down in general right now as I'm realizing I throw with a very slight nose up that causes stalls on all my drives.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:30 pm

Its easiest to throw high with nose down utilizing hyzer, anhyzer, or a disc that will flip. Its all about getting the disc through some apex and having the nose down as its hitting it. Its easiest to do with hyzer because discs naturally fade in a direction that would help keep the disc oriented nose down through the apex.

If you are throwing anhzyer, the disc has to hold that anhyzer angle until it is all the way through the apex in order to get the nose back down. Its the exact opposite of the hyzer, except the disc naturally wants to fade so that the nose would pull up when thrown anhyzer.

Using a disc that flips uses the same idea as doing it with anhyzer, in that you want the disc oriented in the same fashion as an anhyzer through the apex. Typically the apex for this shot is further down range and lower than an anhyzer.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Crosseyed0811 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:51 pm

So throwing flat high and nose down are 3 variables that don't equal each other very well?
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Wyno » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:04 pm

Well, flat and high is kinda pointless anyway isn't it? If I need to get high AND need to keep a straight line (not a regular scenario), I pick up a putter or comet.
But yeah, high and nose down is hard! To do it well you have to have good snap - if the disc slips you'll have a harder time getting nose down, and IMO it'll be most noticeable when you raise the trajectory (probably because it's also hard to maintain a good weight shift when throwing high).
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby swel304 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:17 pm

I have been stuck on this for a long time as well and as far as I can tell this is something that is a little different for everyone and has no clear answer. The usual culprits I see pointed out are weight forward, wrist down, and thumb position. I have never seen thumb position have much effect on my own throws and I felt like I had the other two down well so it was a mystery for a while. For me it turns out that as I was pulling through the hit I was coming out of the wrist down position. After some discussion with JR in the video thread I started focusing on more wrist down than what felt normal to me so that by the time I get to the hit i am closer to where I needed to be. I get a lot less stalls, more accuracy, and a lot more forward fade now days but my overall distance hasnt really improved that much. From an 10ft elevated tee I can blow a good 65-100 ft past what I consider my max D but on flat ground I am still consistently 300-320.

So I am starting to wonder If I (and the op) am asking the wrong questions. I can throw hyzer/straight/anhyzer with nose down and get the flights I want, the problem comes when I am trying to throw high. I know that 10ft more height on my throws could net me substantial distance, I am just not entirely sure how I am supposed to get that height. Pull through a higher line on the chest? a different plane all together? Or if it's say a hyzer flip shot am I just trying to release a bit later?
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:34 pm

swel304 wrote:So I am starting to wonder If I (and the op) am asking the wrong questions. I can throw hyzer/straight/anhyzer with nose down and get the flights I want, the problem comes when I am trying to throw high. I know that 10ft more height on my throws could net me substantial distance, I am just not entirely sure how I am supposed to get that height. Pull through a higher line on the chest? a different plane all together? Or if it's say a hyzer flip shot am I just trying to release a bit later?


For me, the line I'm pulling through changes. Let me preface this by saying that, for virtually all of my throws, what I do from waist up doesn't change. When my reachback is fully extended, by arm is perpendicular to my torso and perpendicular to my shoulders. It looks like my arm is fully extended to the front of my torso. When I'm throwing high, this does not change. What does change is where my torso lines up relative to the ground. If I'm throwing a high hyzer, I am aiming more to the right, and as I am throwing, I am bending at the waist so that my torso is perpendicular to the angle of hyzer I am trying to throw. When I reachback, the disc is staying lower so that, if I pull through the same as I usually do, the disc is coming through my pull on an upward trajectory.

An anhyzer works similarly, except instead of leaning forward, I am leaning back and the disc passes over top of me rather than coming from underneath.

Hopefully I explained this clearly :P I'll try to get some pictures later if I can.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby swel304 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:53 pm

kern9787 wrote:
swel304 wrote:So I am starting to wonder If I (and the op) am asking the wrong questions. I can throw hyzer/straight/anhyzer with nose down and get the flights I want, the problem comes when I am trying to throw high. I know that 10ft more height on my throws could net me substantial distance, I am just not entirely sure how I am supposed to get that height. Pull through a higher line on the chest? a different plane all together? Or if it's say a hyzer flip shot am I just trying to release a bit later?


For me, the line I'm pulling through changes. Let me preface this by saying that, for virtually all of my throws, what I do from waist up doesn't change. When my reachback is fully extended, by arm is perpendicular to my torso and perpendicular to my shoulders. It looks like my arm is fully extended to the front of my torso. When I'm throwing high, this does not change. What does change is where my torso lines up relative to the ground. If I'm throwing a high hyzer, I am aiming more to the right, and as I am throwing, I am bending at the waist so that my torso is perpendicular to the angle of hyzer I am trying to throw. When I reachback, the disc is staying lower so that, if I pull through the same as I usually do, the disc is coming through my pull on an upward trajectory.

An anhyzer works similarly, except instead of leaning forward, I am leaning back and the disc passes over top of me rather than coming from underneath.

Hopefully I explained this clearly :P I'll try to get some pictures later if I can.


I understand and that is exactly how I throw as well. lean forward for hyzer, lean back for anhyzer, and just try to keep the pull the same. I can hyzer flip my valks 320ft on flat ground all day long. These flights are usually about 15ft off the ground. I have been working hard at nose down it just lately seems that maybe the problem isnt so much nose down as it is me not knowing how to throw high without screwing up all my other mechanics.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Crosseyed0811 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:59 pm

I always try to throw flat except when I have to go around something. I guess that needs to change?
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:06 pm

swel304 wrote:I understand and that is exactly how I throw as well. lean forward for hyzer, lean back for anhyzer, and just try to keep the pull the same. I can hyzer flip my valks 320ft on flat ground all day long. These flights are usually about 15ft off the ground. I have been working hard at nose down it just lately seems that maybe the problem isnt so much nose down as it is me not knowing how to throw high without screwing up all my other mechanics.


The difference to add the height is just another axis of rotation for your torso on your throw. Just like you tilt to the angle of your hyzer/anhyzer, your reach back/pull through relative to your lower body rotates. For hyzers, its a clockwise rotation, for anhyzers, its counterclockwise, looking top down.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:10 pm

Crosseyed0811 wrote:I always try to throw flat except when I have to go around something. I guess that needs to change?


Its really hard to throw high and be able to throw flat, as its a really akward position for your torso, or you are completely changing your pull mechanics.

And I'm basically the opposite of you. If I can throw with even a little bit of hyzer, I do. Its easier for me to utilize the fade/arc of the hyzer to range my throws than it is to adjust power into it.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby JHern » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:30 pm

I think its important to clarify the angles here: What is meant by throwing high nose down is not that the disc is released nose down relative to the ground. Rather, it is releasing it flat or nose down relative to the trajectory the disc is flying.

If you try to throw up high but with the disc flat relative to ground (water level), the disc won't rise up much at all, but instead it will produce an inverse air bounce (going up and springing back down) then popping into a level flight without a strong natural apex. Basically, the nose level relative to the ground determines the vertical angle of the flight trajectory. You have to get the disc to turn over through the apex for maximum distance, because this is what makes it come out of the apex with a nose down attitude relative to the ground.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby swel304 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:35 pm

kern9787 wrote:
Crosseyed0811 wrote:I always try to throw flat except when I have to go around something. I guess that needs to change?


Its really hard to throw high and be able to throw flat, as its a really akward position for your torso, or you are completely changing your pull mechanics.

And I'm basically the opposite of you. If I can throw with even a little bit of hyzer, I do. Its easier for me to utilize the fade/arc of the hyzer to range my throws than it is to adjust power into it.


I can agree with that. Id rather have my control driver beat up just enough to flip up from a little hyzer than to try to throw it flat for a straight drive. I feel like it gets more glide and is way less likely to get nose up that way. I really only ever try to throw flat on standstill/downhill drives/upshots and of course putts.

[quote="kern9787"
The difference to add the height is just another axis of rotation for your torso on your throw. Just like you tilt to the angle of your hyzer/anhyzer, your reach back/pull through relative to your lower body rotates. For hyzers, its a clockwise rotation, for anhyzers, its counterclockwise, looking top down.[/quote]

I am not sure I am understanding this. Some visual explanation would be awesome! lol
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby zj1002 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:27 pm

here is a tip I picked up from my longest throws(lots of practice). My distance form is generally a turnaround-360 throw. It really isn't about just throwing as high as you can with nose down. You will get bad form and results because "throwing high" is different from "aiming high". When I throw distance I "aim" my body and line higher, while trying to still maintain a level/flat pull. If I try to just throw higher without aiming, my shoulder and arm planes are different. This results in nose up stalls. You also need to be capable of the "out motion" that Blake and Brad talk about. With a 360, not having(some of) the out-motion, will result in slips where the disc just shoots out in a nose up hyzer off to the left.

The recent distance video by Dion Aryln is a great example. He is pulling off 500-600ft shots with a fairly level pull. His aim is higher and left, but his core/shoulders/arms all come through on the same plane. If you try to force your arm or shoulder up high, it can result in your body coming through on different angle planes. By aiming higher, if the practice/form is there, the muscle memory should take over. Your body will throw higher as long as you focus on the hit point. After a certain height, I don't really think throwing higher will provide more distance. It takes a lot of practice to be honest. Try a lighter disc or beat up disc. When GG was giving a clinic at NCDGC, he threw nose down hyzer flips with 150g Teerexs. They also had him throw some new destroyers, to which he replied with something along the lines off "they aren't beat up enough". They don't throw brand new 175g discs for distance, it works, but it just makes it easier to use seasoned discs. My longest consistent throws(575-600ft) have been coming with a beat up 171g Quasar. I have thrown farther, but I have no clue what I did. A year ago I threw my first 360 throw in a distance contest, and it results in 450-500ft throws. I can now touch 600ft with most discs that are speed 11-13. I had to learn how to power through the hit point. I am fairly confident that as I get better and practice more, I will be throwing with the top ones around the world.

So just focus on keeping your core/shoulder/arm on the hit line, rather than just trying to throw your arm to a higher point. But don't aim too high. I can't give you a good number in feet, but if you watch the Dion Arlyn video his angle is pretty much dead on. There really isn't an easy answer I can give you unless you throw up a video. It is most likely form because I have watched and performed, nose down hyzer-flip "dump" shots. This is the shot GG throws, where the disc has so much nose down that is is forced over from hyzer. It works best with lighter or seasoned discs because they don't resist the dump as much as a new and/or heavy disc will.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:57 pm

JHern wrote:I think its important to clarify the angles here: What is meant by throwing high nose down is not that the disc is released nose down relative to the ground. Rather, it is releasing it flat or nose down relative to the trajectory the disc is flying.


If I'm understanding correctly, this leads to exactly what I'm talking about in getting the nose down, relative to the ground, through the apex. Correct?
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby JR » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:33 pm

kern9787 wrote:
JHern wrote:I think its important to clarify the angles here: What is meant by throwing high nose down is not that the disc is released nose down relative to the ground. Rather, it is releasing it flat or nose down relative to the trajectory the disc is flying.


If I'm understanding correctly, this leads to exactly what I'm talking about in getting the nose down, relative to the ground, through the apex. Correct?


I've intentionally used the words extreme nose down to differentiate the front of the disc lower than the rear of the disc flights. Front and rear of the disc at the same height are nose down, when the disc is hyzered rising. That flight will have more sideways fade than extreme nose down, where the disc flies faster after the apex thanks to the dive forward. Too low extreme nose down leads to a shorter throw than front and rear of the disc level throw. Front and back of the disc level shots go 400'+ so there are other issues you need to address than this. Extreme nose down to beyond 10' apexes is one of the most difficult things to pull off. As such it would help to focus on the underlying form deficiencies like getting big snap. That reportedly helps in getting the nose down. Can't say from experience. I need to let my index finger heal over the winter so that i can attack stopping the wrist and maintaining pinched fingers on the disc long enough to get a full pivot of the disc with the resulting speed and spin plus hopefully more nose down angle.At the moment it seems that i can't keep on pinching long enough with the index finger hurting too much.
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