Throwing High with Nose Down

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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby LumberJack » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:02 pm

I, too, have had difficulty throwing nose down with height. What helped me is to intentionally OAT the disc over on a hyzer-flip. It's difficult to replicate the precise amount of wrist roll everytime and it's more of an experiment but it has helped...mostly on distance lines though.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:24 pm

Crosseyed0811 wrote:I think I'm starting to understand...that I know nothing of throwing lines... I am ashamed to admit it. I don't even know where to start here, but these pictures and the other thread (beato had another picture there) have revealed to me I'm missing the game here. I've always taken the straight line approach when available, played the natural fade. This might be why I've always gravitated back to the Teebird as my main driver. Would I be better off changing my fairway driver up to something like an Eagle to work on learning how to throw more this way, or would my Leo's do fine? I feel like a complete noob now lol!

BTW, I've still not gotten to the course to throw with any of this stuff in mind, I've just been thinking about it at work all day.


A teebird or leo are capable of working lines, but it doesn't come as naturally to those discs as others. A dx eagle-x comes highly recommended in regards to learning to work different lines as it is one of the most versatile fairway drivers you can come across.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby zj1002 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:25 pm

Crosseyed0811 wrote:I think I'm starting to understand...that I know nothing of throwing lines... I am ashamed to admit it. I don't even know where to start here, but these pictures and the other thread (beato had another picture there) have revealed to me I'm missing the game here. I've always taken the straight line approach when available, played the natural fade. This might be why I've always gravitated back to the Teebird as my main driver. Would I be better off changing my fairway driver up to something like an Eagle to work on learning how to throw more this way, or would my Leo's do fine? I feel like a complete noob now lol!

BTW, I've still not gotten to the course to throw with any of this stuff in mind, I've just been thinking about it at work all day.


I only use distance lines for...distance...

don't change your disc. Certain discs are better are certain lines but the disc won't matter. That type of line isn't always practical. In Austin there is only one course where I can throw pure distance lines more than 1-2 times a round. I can still throw just as far straight at a target, but I can get more "potential distance" when I air it out. That doesn't mean it is a reliable shot, and in most cases its best saved for distance contests. It does allow me to throw some huge anhyzers around objects that most people can't reach, but I need a good win. Watch any video up on dgplanet, most of them are throwing straight flat shots. Nikko would be an example of one of the top pros who throws a ton of flex lines successfully.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Crosseyed0811 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:31 pm

zj1002 wrote:
Crosseyed0811 wrote:I think I'm starting to understand...that I know nothing of throwing lines... I am ashamed to admit it. I don't even know where to start here, but these pictures and the other thread (beato had another picture there) have revealed to me I'm missing the game here. I've always taken the straight line approach when available, played the natural fade. This might be why I've always gravitated back to the Teebird as my main driver. Would I be better off changing my fairway driver up to something like an Eagle to work on learning how to throw more this way, or would my Leo's do fine? I feel like a complete noob now lol!

BTW, I've still not gotten to the course to throw with any of this stuff in mind, I've just been thinking about it at work all day.


I only use distance lines for...distance...

don't change your disc. Certain discs are better are certain lines but the disc won't matter. That type of line isn't always practical. In Austin there is only one course where I can throw pure distance lines more than 1-2 times a round. I can still throw just as far straight at a target, but I can get more "potential distance" when I air it out. That doesn't mean it is a reliable shot, and in most cases its best saved for distance contests. It does allow me to throw some huge anhyzers around objects that most people can't reach, but I need a good win. Watch any video up on dgplanet, most of them are throwing straight flat shots. Nikko would be an example of one of the top pros who throws a ton of flex lines successfully.



I wasn't talking about just the distance lines, if you go to the thread that was linked with that picture you'll see beato talking about different lines on tunnel shots. I've actually been watching videos from USDGC vids I've got here and the like and honestly I'm seeing most of them work some sort of slight anny or hyzer on most shots. Or I thought I was... Like I said earlier in the thread I'm not a distance line thrower. I'm not looking for field distance, I'm looking to quit throwing shots that are nose up and stall on teh golf course when I try to throw anything other than a low line drive. That's what I thought we were talking about here?
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:40 pm

That's what I was talking about cross, but throwing high with nose down is talked about most commonly with distance lines.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Crosseyed0811 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:54 pm

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/St ... tunnel.jpg

Edit: for the life of me I can't get this picture imbedded...

This is the picture I was speaking of. I would generally attempt to throw flat and straight down the middle. Typically with very little success to be honest.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby zj1002 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:58 pm

That is just a way of eliminating half the fairway. Helps you focus in on the apex/breaking point. I use it to help me focus on some lines, mainly anhyzers
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Crosseyed0811 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:01 pm

That's just the thing, I've never understood what people meant when they would say things like an Eagle is much better at shaping lines than a Teebird. It made no sense to me because basically all I would thow is straight and flat, or a "plain" hyzer or anny if I needed to go around something. Or FH with the same lines. I'm now seeing what they mean, I've never attempted or even thought of shaping a line like that.

Oh, and thanks kern, I actually missed your suggestion about a DX Eagle-X. I actually have one I was thinking about taking to PIAS tomorrow, maybe I'll hang onto it...
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:04 pm

Image

Depending on the length of the hole (its hard to tell with the lines on it), I'd personally probably throw a hyzer flip at this. I'm assuming basket is dead straight down the fairway, and not tucked off to a side, as that would make a difference for me.

The reason I'd prefer a hyzer flip on that, from the looks of it at least, is that by doing so, I'm still throwing a straight shot, but pending disc selection, I won't see as much fade at the end. In essence, I can throw a straighter shot easier than trying to throw flat and straight.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby zj1002 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:06 pm

it also depends on the landing zone. that affects the shot choice.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:16 pm

Crosseyed0811 wrote:That's just the thing, I've never understood what people meant when they would say things like an Eagle is much better at shaping lines than a Teebird. It made no sense to me because basically all I would thow is straight and flat, or a "plain" hyzer or anny if I needed to go around something. Or FH with the same lines. I'm now seeing what they mean, I've never attempted or even thought of shaping a line like that.


Here's my reasoning (and most people's afaik) as to why the ex is better at line shaping than a teebird. And its not to say a teebird is incapable of line shaping, or an inferior disc, just different.

Teebirds really excel at holding a line because are fairly HSS, and they don't fade much. So teebirds really do well with straight shots, they hold hyzers well so long as you don't overpower and flip them, and they are good at holding anhyzers basically to the ground.

Ex's can do straight shots, but they typically have to be a hyzer flip because they are more prone to turn. Ex's also have a much more substantial fade, meaning ex's are much more capable of working s-type flights.

Depending on how adept you are at throwing them, ex's can get, what I consider at least, a 4 part flight. If you start off with good power on a hyzer, the first part of the flight will be straight as the disc stands up and starts to turn over. Then you have the turn, and the disc will track right (RHBH), followed by a relatively straight flight again (when the disc has slowed down to its cruising speed). Lastly, you have the fade left (againk RHBH). Typically a teebird on the same type of throw will get, at most, 3 stages (straight, turn, straight).

Long story short. Teebirds A game is straight shots or what I'll one-bend flights (I'm sure there's a much better term), Ex's A game is S-shots.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby Crosseyed0811 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:31 pm

The teebird part of that described my game, and why I never really got into the eagles. But in doing so I was oblivious to shots that existed it seems... I threw straigh or one bend, maybe 2 if I threw something overstable to flex out of an anny.

Now I USED to throw a pro leo on a hyzer flip, but I only worked it to straight. I never used it with less hyzer to flip over and carry right more or anything to that effect, just lazer straight shots. I quit using it for a while and when I went back to it I couldn't get it to flip. I believe I have found out why in that I don't think I was maintaining it in a "nose down" orientation in my hand which caused the flight plate to catch air and not actually flip but hold the hyzer.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby kern9787 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:03 pm

Crosseyed0811 wrote:The teebird part of that described my game, and why I never really got into the eagles. But in doing so I was oblivious to shots that existed it seems... I threw straigh or one bend, maybe 2 if I threw something overstable to flex out of an anny.

Now I USED to throw a pro leo on a hyzer flip, but I only worked it to straight. I never used it with less hyzer to flip over and carry right more or anything to that effect, just lazer straight shots. I quit using it for a while and when I went back to it I couldn't get it to flip. I believe I have found out why in that I don't think I was maintaining it in a "nose down" orientation in my hand which caused the flight plate to catch air and not actually flip but hold the hyzer.


My game tends to be similar to yours, as that's what excels typically at my local courses (relatively open, windy). Although unless I'm throwing an ion, you'll rarely, if ever, see me release a disc flat.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby garublador » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:05 am

The issue I have with shaping lines with a Teebird is that I find that if you get one turned over, they tend to turn hard and not come back, especially when beat. Even getting a 3 direction flight is difficult because of how touchy they are to being turned over. It's easier to get discs like the Eagle-X will hold a gentle turn without them just turning and burning when they're in their most controllable beatness.
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Re: Throwing High with Nose Down

Postby JHern » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:34 am

kern9787 wrote:
JHern wrote:I think its important to clarify the angles here: What is meant by throwing high nose down is not that the disc is released nose down relative to the ground. Rather, it is releasing it flat or nose down relative to the trajectory the disc is flying.


If I'm understanding correctly, this leads to exactly what I'm talking about in getting the nose down, relative to the ground, through the apex. Correct?


Think about the exact center of the disc tracing out an imaginary line through space as it flies in calm conditions. Measure the angle of the flight plate relative to that line. This is called the "angle of attack" of the disc, and is positive for nose up relative to the line, negative for nose down relative to the line. The angle of attack and air speed of the disc determine its lift, drag, and turning forces (for a given shape). For greatest accuracy, control, and to minimize dissipation of energy through excessive drag, you should always try to start the disc with a zero angle of attack, throwing flat down the line you are aiming for. If you are aiming to throw on a line that goes upward 5 degrees (relative to water level), then your disc should also be released oriented 5 degrees up (relative to water level), so that the flight plate is oriented along the desired line. If you throw with too much positive angle of attack, the disc will attempt to ascend at a steeper angle and stall, unless you give it more power. If you throw with too much negative angle of attack, then the disc will not ascend on the line you're aiming for, but will instead ascend at a lower angle. If you release at a significantly different angle than you're aiming for, then the aerodynamic force on the disc opposes the direction in which the disc is moving, dissipating (losing) power.
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