FTT's (slower) bag project

[Fightingthetide]

Checked out some TL's at lunch today, Its basically the same difference as an Eagle-X and Eagle-L. Don't know why that would surprise anyone though

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I actually met someone locally for a trade today and picked up a lightly seasoned 168 Star TL. It looks like it was found in a lake. The flight plate is domier than my TB's, which is nothing out of the ordinary. Except for the obvious flat wing, the only other major difference I see is that the TL seems to also have a flatter top mold over the wing. Anyway, im excited to give this a toss. Im hoping it will fit in as a max D driver for me.

[Fightingthetide]

Picked up a 173 Banshee and a 168 Star Leo today. Also recently traded for a lightly used 168 Star TL.

Driver lineup:
173 Champ Banshee - very overstable
170 Champ Teebird - moderately overstable
170 Star Teebird - mildly overstable / flex distance
168 Star TL - stable control / distance
168 Star Leopard - understable / understable distance
175 Pro Leopard (beat) - very understable

179 Vector - overstable
177 Z Buzzz - stable mid
177 GL Fuse - more stable fuse
177 GL Fuse - less stable fuse

172 M Ion

[Fightingthetide]

Finished another round with the bag. This was my first round with nothing faster than speed 7, and I shot SO much better. On a course where I would normally shoot 12-16 over par, I shot 6 over today (945 rated), with easily fixable errors that would have brought be down to a +3.

One thing I noticed is that my TL likes to fly on a frozen rope when thrown flat, and fade realllly late and realllly soft. It landed me a par 4 on a hole where +1 was my norm. I honestly didn't see any overlap between it and my 168 Star Leopard. The Leo show high-speed turn (more than expected being that it's new) and had a much curvier flight. So basically, I am "re-categorizing" my bag....oh the joy of semantics...what really matters is that I have a bag that I can actually control AND get good enough D to easily land a par 4 670' hole. So now I'm considering my TL to be "stable control" and my Star/Champ Teebird to be an "overstable" combo.

Oh, and my Ion got me a birdie from about 100' out today It was a "bad" upshot because it was too high, but thankfully that forward-carrying fade took it right into the chains. CHING!

[Fightingthetide]

Lost some, traded some, bought some:

173 Champ Banshee - very overstable
170 Champ Teebird - moderately overstable
170 Star Teebird - mildly overstable / flex distance
168 Star TL - stable control / distance
171 Pro Leopard (new) - stable for now
175 Pro Leopard (beat) - understable

179 Vector - overstable
177 Z Buzzz - stable mid
178 Axis - neutral mid
177 GL Fuse - more stable fuse
177 GL Fuse - less stable fuse

172 M Ion - Driving/Approach
170 M Ion - Putting

Lost my Star Teebird and Star Leopard, traded around locally from my stock to get another Star TB and a Pro Leo, and bought another Ion and broke down to get an Axis (green, mild dome, looks like the good ones you guys describe).

Still thinking about picking up a 165 Pro Valkyrie soon to mess around with open-fairway distance.

[JR]

Max weight new 175 pro Valk flips a lot and my 167 Champ Valk only a little. Both fade too much for my taste compared to the Beast or equally flippy Leo. Leos flip about as much as the new pro Valk.

[Fightingthetide]

Max weight new 175 pro Valk flips a lot and my 167 Champ Valk only a little. Both fade too much for my taste compared to the Beast or equally flippy Leo. Leos flip about as much as the new pro Valk.

How much power are you getting behind your champ and pro Valks? And pro Leos?

The rim of a Valk is a touch more comfortable for me than a Beast. There's also the nose-angle sensitivity...anyway, I'm open for suggestions. The Valk just appeals to me because of the rim size, how it feels in my hand (I feel like I can get a good rip on it), and because it's not a drastic jump up from speed 7.

[Crosseyed0811]

Are Beasts significantly more nose angle sensitive than Valks?

[Fightingthetide]

Are Beasts significantly more nose angle sensitive than Valks?

From what I hear they are. However, I'm not sure how much more. In reality, I feel like nose-angle sensitivity would make you work harder at correct form and correct release.

Anyone else know about this?

[Fightingthetide]

I feel dumb. I was warming up on the first hole of a course, and threw my Star Teebird back toward the teepad and lost it in a thick mess of bamboo and kudzu.

So here is what I have for drivers:

173 Champ Banshee -- 170 Champ Teebird -- 168 Star TL -- 171 Pro Leo (new) -- 175 Pro Leo (beat)

Anyone see a gap? Do I need to pick up another Star Teebird, or should this lineup suffice?

[Crosseyed0811]

According to the stuff I heard from Barry Schultz tonight, I'd say you were fine...

[Fightingthetide]

According to the stuff I heard from Barry Schultz tonight, I'd say you were fine...

EDIT: Well that just about settles it then. TL's and Leo's it is. At first I thought you were referring to something he said at USDGC's.

I might try to pick up some other TL's in the near future and stick with them as my main driver instead of Teebirds (and still hang on to my champ for the overstable slot). They don't need as much snap to fly far like their big brother, nor do they require anhyzer on distance lines. Also, I really like how my pro Leo's fly next to them - they have enough high-speed turn when new to be a good understable compliment to my lightly seasoned TL. I have two pro Leo's now and plan on starting a rotation once the new one beats-in. After I get a few more rounds in, I'll report back on the TL/Leo combo.

If you happen to pick up some Beasts, let me know if they get further than your Teebird. I'm a bit low on disc money right now, so If I do make a purchase I need to be sure about it. However, the thought of a 170ish Champ and a 165 Pro sounds really enticing.

Thinking about this (dont have the ones in bold):

170 Champ Beast - Headwind D
165 Pro Beast (or maybe Star) - Tailwind D
173 Champ Banshee - Very Overstable
170 Champ Teebird - Overstable
170 Star TL (new) - Stable Control
168 Star TL (seasoned) - Stable Control
171 Pro Leo (new) - Understable
175 Pro Leo (beat) - Understable

[JR]

Max weight new 175 pro Valk flips a lot and my 167 Champ Valk only a little. Both fade too much for my taste compared to the Beast or equally flippy Leo. Leos flip about as much as the new pro Valk.

How much power are you getting behind your champ and pro Valks? And pro Leos?

The rim of a Valk is a touch more comfortable for me than a Beast. There's also the nose-angle sensitivity...anyway, I'm open for suggestions. The Valk just appeals to me because of the rim size, how it feels in my hand (I feel like I can get a good rip on it), and because it's not a drastic jump up from speed 7.

Beast fades less so a little nose up ain't gonna kill it. It's nothing like fast discs in the nose angle sensitivity. Beast is quite forgiving, but it can rise high with bad nose up unlike a less gliding PD that is shorter. Beast and Valk are only one speed rating apart.

I can throw each of those discs with a full run up and everything i have.

[Fightingthetide]

JR - thanks for the tip.

Not too long ago I found a 169 Champ Beast and a seasoned 172 Star Beast on a local course. Both were flat, but the Champ was slightly overstable and the Star was flippy. Anyway, I'm not sure what to blame it on other than the Star being much more seasoned (and different plastic), but considering their distance wasn't much more than my Teebirds I decided to move past that mold at the time. Right after you posted this I remembered this experience...so pretty much I would take back what I said about the rim size of a Valk being the widest I might be comfortable with. Keep reading...

Tonight I ended up finding a soft, domey 166 Starchon today at my local shop. I picked it up to give it a shot as a max D driver. I figure the speed (yes, yes, I am breaking my "rules") would add distance on open fairways and the stability, soft plastic, and dome would be friendly toward my abilities at this point. I am in need of a distance driver that I can throw from flat or slight hyzer and figured this would do the trick. In the past I have tried Sidewinders and Roadrunners for this. They were either too stable (new) or too unpredictable once seasoned, which led me to pick up the Starchon.


Here's the bag update, with discs I'm thinking about adding in bold:

Thoughts?

166 Star Archon - Distance (testing)
173 Champ Banshee - Very Overstable
70 Champ Teebird - Overstable (less workable)
170 Star Teebird - Overstable (more workable)
168 Star TL - Stable Control (straight)
170 Champ Leopard - Stable Control (workable)
171 Pro Leopard (new) - Understable
175 Pro Leopard (beat) - Very Understable

179 Vector - Overstable
177 Z Buzzz - Stable mid
178 Axis - Neutral mid
177 GL Fuse - Understable Mid

172 M Ion - Driving/Approach
170 M Ion - Putting

[JR]

I have an older flippier Star Beast that is still new in condition and that is how the Beasts used to be. Newer ones are more straight stable.

[Fightingthetide]

JR - That might explain what I experienced with them.


I've done some thinking about the slow bag. After playing a round with my Archon yesterday, I really liked how it didn't require as much height to get max D. While I still want the core of my bag to be speed 6/7, I am thinking of adding in a few faster discs for open holes and lower ceilings. (On that note, I have really enjoyed my 171 Pro Leo on low ceilings, but it's reach is sometimes a bit too short). Where I am at right now with the bag is a point where I will mainly use Teebirds and Leopards for most drives, with the aim of getting my TB's to 400' and to learn how to use Leo's on lines that need more line-shaping.

With that in mind, I want to add in a 168-172 Star Wraith soon. Once that breaks in a little, and once I get the hang of it, I'll probably add in a 173+ Champ Wraith. I also need to find another Star Teebird (since I lost the last 2 that I bought) and decide if I will keep both TL's and Leopards in the bag, or just go with TB's and Leos -- I added a 174 Champ Leo, and I wonder if it will compete with my 168 Star TL...time for some field work.

I feel like this accomplishes my original goal by giving my bag have a "slow" core, while also giving me the chance to learn faster discs, yet not simply for the sake of gaining more D (though I expect that).