cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

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cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby cajual » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:56 am

Let me give a brief background first; (semi-long post)

I live in Dallas, Texas so the wind is very consistently a factor here.

I am still a young golfer (less than a full year of dedicated, serious play) and find that experience always far outweighs education and am looking for some veteran advice.

I can throw anywhere between 300-450' very consistently with my different mainstays, but find I am most accurate at 80% power between 275-350' and try to play within this range and develop control first and foremost.

I try to throw at 80% as much as possible, so when I step up on the box and think that I can reach it with my Buzzz at full power, I typically reach for a TB and power down. Likewise my TB > S-PD has a similar substitution. I have also found that my slower discs need more ceiling to work, and that my faster ones can be snapped out straighter and flatter.

I think one of my primary questions is whether or not I should cut everything faster than a 7 out of my bag. Regardless of my power, I am curious if my sheer newness should warrant it. A lot of what I have come to understand about disc and progression as far as ability goes is the ability to truly understand your discs. Even if I can throw the PD and have it fly correctly, should I be? Or should I be focusing on say, just my Wizard / Buzzz / and Teebird?

My Bag;

Putting; ALL max weight
Wizard(s); I carry 4-5 in varied stages of wear/softness for different purposes - Driving, approaching, putting. I am a push putter.
**I have read several posts about the Ion and am really curious about this disc and whether or not it would be a BETTER putter for me.

Mid-range; 174-177
Buzzz(s); I carry 4 - 3 FR-Zs that range in wear but are all stable, and 1 FR-X that is more workable.
Hornet(s); 2; both Z and stable - I grab this when I really want to throw my Buzzz but the wind is factor, or when I am looking for more left finish / skip.

Fairway; 167-169
Teebird(s); 2 DX for workability, 2 11x Cal Mold for stability (my GO-TO disc around 300)
River; 1 Opaque Opto -- this disc has not yet completely won me over, however I have found that in down hill elevation shots, L>R tailwinds, or low ceiling shots that need glide it is a work horse. **does another disc fill this role better?
Predator; I carry 1 FR Z and use it in situations where I am not quite sure if I can trust my TB into the wind, or when I need a lot of left finish / skip. I also use it for utility forehand (the most I can manage out of a forehand shot currently at my level of ability)

Driver; 167-169
PD; I cycle out _several_ PDs and am absolutely in love with this disc. 4 CFR, 4 champy-star S-Line cover a very wide range of shots. I have yet to find any consistency in the P-Line however and choose to leave these out of my bag.
TD; I have 3 champy-star S-line and find that they will soon overlap with my worn S-line PDs, I do however find that I can helix / frozen rope these slightly better than my PDs and that they have much less left finish / skip on faster greens.

Max D / Open Field; 167-169
Sword; 1 hybrid GL / VIP for longer flex shots when I have a lot of room to work. I actually replaced all my Augusta WRs with this due to it dealing with winds better and having more glide. I have also found it penetrates the wind slightly better as it fades.

Utility; weights match related catagory
Fuse; I carry 1 GL and have found this to be almost irreplaceable due to its utility. I do not throw it near as much as my other mids but find that when I need anhyzer or glide it is second to none.
Vision; 1 Opaque Opto; trying to season this to be a strong right finish disc that will also serve as a roller. *Not 100% sold, curious if another disc will fill this better down the road as I really start to season my plastic.
XXX; 1 Opaque Opto; Thumber, FH roller, skips, strong left finish

Bag; Gorilla Boy 2nd Gen Kong with Quads
Total Discs; 22-26~ depending on the weather / course / etc
Molds; 12
Go-To Molds; 4 (Wiz > Buz > Tb > Pd)

Thanks,
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby cajual » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:45 pm

Anyone? 38 people took the time to read (or at least click) and no one has any opinions! I truly would appreciate some feedback. I am wanting to make some decisions for next season as to progression and bag decisions.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby Mike C » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:08 pm

No real suggestions from me, just a few questions. What does the River do that a worn DX Teebird doesn't? Same with the XXX and the Pred.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby cajual » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:25 pm

Mike; I would also say that my more overstable PDs really fill the same role also. These are discs I have experimented with that I am trying to make my mind up on. For example, as CFR PDs become more difficult to find would other current production discs become better? This is exactly the type of question / statement I was looking for, something to confirm/challenge my current thoughts.

About your statement regarding the River vs DX TB: Does a well seasoned DX TB glide as well as the River? I feel like my Birds may not yet have reached their 'sweet spot' and thus find them a bit more stable than my River (that I manually de-flashed and have been throwing 2-3 months longer). The Predator was the first real wind disc that I threw and is also competing with the XXX and CFR PD. I find that it skips better, penetrates as it fades more, and digs into the ground better on hyzer spikes but other than that flies almost identical for me to my CFR PD.

I have had conflicting thoughts about the TD and Vision also.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby cajual » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:32 pm

Mike; Do you think this might be a better set-up for development:

Main:

Wizard
Z Buzzz
X Buzzz
Z Hornet
DX TB
S PD
C PD
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby Mike C » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:13 am

I mainly asked because I have not thrown a River or XXX. Sounds like you might be able to replace the River with a TB once it breaks in, but that's not something I can personally comment on. What you say about getting away from rare discs to easier to find discs makes sense though, unless you can make a nice stockpile of the CFR's. The problem with using the PD for this role is I think it would be possible for a strong headwind to knock it around more easily than a Pred, and if it ever started wearing in you might have issues.

The above setup looks good as long as you have beat TB's / PD's to cover your turnover shots. X Buzzes can break in to a nice turnover disc but I found more success with a more understable mold like a Fuse or beat Comet for that role.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby JR » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:26 am

River in GL is one of the best rear wind drivers i've tried. More power hungry than a Leo, but won't flip and can handle annies without flexing out, but is very touchy on the angle of anny. MIss by a few degrees of anny and it ain't coming back=easily holds annies to ground. Today a fair bit of rear wind had about 12' apex line drive to 406'. In calm weather i can rip it flat without any turn at full power. It needs height for distance and is longer than a TB for the same power. Hard low throws don't have any fade whatsoever. Skips aren't massive. I would think that given Mike's tastes River could very well suit him. TB ain't as straight as a GL River. And the River takes powering down way better.

XXX is a meathook and long in overhands. akuf threw my GL XXX at less than full power with overhead shot and it landed on a rock with quite a burr.

Cajual needs at least wind handling mid if not also a putter and in driver slot. Gator is a good wind mid and it alone may suffice for wind duties depending on how you play, how far he throws and how overstable PD he has.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby cajual » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:48 am

XXX is a meathook and long in overhands


Jr; I had hoped you would stop in and drop a thought or two, I keep meaning to take some quality footage and let you guys critique me. I know that would help me improve by leaps and bounds. Now, as to your comment; the above quote was my initial reason for bagging the XXX. I understood it to be a meat-hook, much more so than either my most stable PD and Pred. I also use it when I "attempt" an overhand, and occasionally for sidearms. The problem is my overhand form feels very shoddy and I am not quite sure of the fundamentals when it comes to it. I played short stop for years but it doesn't feel like a baseman's throw to me.

The Fuse is a permanent part of my bag. Although I do not pull it out as often as I may should, I have found that it plays a role no other disc does. The glide is just incredible, I have put it on long down hill annies and it just appears to float as if on a cloud. The disc is phenomenal. I keep hearing that I should consider a Squall also in this slot, and that it is also a one-of-a-kind.

As far as my "wind handling mid" I consider my Hornet to be this disc. I have thrown the Drone and Zone both and find neither to feel that great in the hand comparatively. Now, I will say that I have considered a Whippet here and have had some strong urges to try it out, but you also mention a Gator. Are their better plastics (of course faster) to try for these? Possibly the Glo (is Glow for Innova similar to DC? More overstable consistently)?

Mike; I posted a dialogue that I had with Jubu concerning the wearing stages of discs, and truly believe that I have to experience an actually worn disc. I just dont believe that in less than a year of play one can understand plastic progression via seasoning. I do not make a habit of hitting trees, and am pretty dang accurate as long as I remain smooth and keep my footwork in line. My range suffers, but I consider Iron golf to be good golf (par is par). I try to focus more on my putting over all.

Do you think a Predator might fill the role of a HW disc more consistently than a CFR PD or high PLH PD? I could always phase these out and just throw them in worn C-line and S-line. Keep the XXX for utility along with the Fuse. I am glad to hear that the River plays a unique role, I have enjoyed this disc.

Anyways, thanks a ton for all the feed back so far.
Last edited by cajual on Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby jubuttib » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:59 am

I don't doubt the Predator is great into headwinds, but I've yet to see a wind where I'd worry about throwing my C-PD.
Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby JR » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:16 am

cajual wrote:
XXX is a meathook and long in overhands


Jr; I had hoped you would stop in and drop a thought or two, I keep meaning to take some quality footage and let you guys critique me. I know that would help me improve by leaps and bounds. Now, as to your comment; the above quote was my initial reason for bagging the XXX. I understood it to be a meat-hook, much more so than either my most stable PD and Pred. I also use it when I "attempt" an overhand, and occasionally for sidearms. The problem is my overhand form feels very shoddy and I am not quite sure of the fundamentals when it comes to it. I played short stop for years but it doesn't feel like a baseman's throw to me.

The Fuse is a permanent part of my bag. Although I do not pull it out as often as I may should, I have found that it plays a role no other disc does. The glide is just incredible, I have put it on long down hill annies and it just appears to float as if on a cloud. The disc is phenomenal. I keep hearing that I should consider a Squall also in this slot, and that it is also a one-of-a-kind.

As far as my "wind handling mid" I consider my Hornet to be this disc. I have thrown the Drone and Zone both and find neither to feel that great in the hand comparatively. Now, I will say that I have considered a Whippet here and have had some strong urges to try it out, but you also mention a Gator. Are their better plastics (of course faster) to try for these? Possibly the Glo (is Glow for Innova similar to DC? More overstable consistently)?

Mike; I posted a dialogue that I had with Jubu concerning the wearing stages of discs, and truly believe that I have to experience an actually worn disc. I just dont believe that in less than a year of play one can understand plastic progression via seasoning. I do not make a habit of hitting trees, and am pretty dang accurate as long as I remain smooth and keep my footwork in line. My range suffers, but I consider Iron golf to be good golf (par is par). I try to focus more on my putting over all.

Do you think a Predator might fill the role of a HW disc more consistently than a CFR PD or high PLH PD? I could always phase these out and just throw them in worn C-line and S-line. Keep the XXX for utility along with the Fuse. I am glad to hear that the River plays a unique role, I have enjoyed this disc.
--
I know that you guys probably hear lots of individuals state that they want to progress to a Pro level, but I have every intention of doing this. I have always been very rigorous and disciplined in my training and have competed in Martial Arts at National and States levels multiple times and placed in the top 10, and as high as 1st (I am a form guy, not as much a point spar'r). I trained to my 3rd degree before life became an issue, but have found that Discgolf strongly fills the role that Tae Kwon Do, Soccer, and Baseball use to play for me up until college. I really believe that a strong fundamental bag is a great place to start, I think there and knowing the fundamentals of form and applying them on the field.

Anyways, thanks a ton for all the feed back so far.


Squall is very different to a Fuse. Fuse gliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiides and Squall is faster, but doesn't glide nearly as well and wants more power.

The Hornet may work at lower power levels,but it ain't gonna handle more power or harder winds as well as the Gator. Gators are plenty beefy in each plastic so you need not worry about that. Pred is power hungry and depending on your power and the severity of winds you need to tackle it may even be too much. It usually is for new players.

The River is not so much of a super glider like the Fuse, but both do glise well for their class. River less so, but there are so few notable competitors in those distances. Mids have great competition in Comet that IMO outperforms the Fuse. Newer Sidewinders are ok, when new in Star at least so River does have competition too in straight long disc category, but River is not outdone.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby cajual » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:10 pm

My longest distances are always in the field after a bit of warming up, once I get my rhythm really locked down, but I suspect this is the same for almost everyone. I have measured throws out to the 450s (measured using Google Earth) when I am really hitting all the major aspects and keeping the nose down. The biggest struggle that I have is that the more I try to 'rip it' so to speak, the less weight transfer I have to my front foot, thus the more nose up I release with. When I play actual rounds I try to think about my throws 50-100' shorter due to powering down and slower footwork. This may not be the best philosophy, but it has been reasonably successful for me up until this point.

I can very consistently and accurately put a Predator out to 400. Typically it will hold a very straight line until almost the very end, then finish hard left. I understand this to be its designed flight, however I could be mistaken.

I top my Hornet out right around 300 give or take, the same place I am putting my Buzzz. My Wizards are just shy of this.

When you mention the Gator as a better Hornet for a power thrower what type of distance etc are you describing? And when you say that you would suggest an overstable putter, what do you have in mind? I was under the impression that a Wizard was an overstable putter. I own a couple FR Ridges and a Zone, are you referring to either of these?

Thanks again,
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby JR » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:58 pm

Those are not casual distances :-) Gator is slower, shorter and harder fading than the Hornet and most of all way more HSS and wind neutral. It straightens out in headwinds. The Hornet flips. Ridges are better than Wizards in the winds and Zone is way better, except for straight shots and Ridges are good there for your power.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby discspeed » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:18 am

I can't imagine how you can throw a Predator comfortably 400', yet only throw your mids 300'. A Pred should only go 20-30' farther than your Buzzz...I'm just wondering because I would have to really muscle a Pred on a steep anny and a huge S turn to get 400', yet I can throw a Buzzz close to 300' from a standstill.

Anyway, my overall advice at this point would be to make some decisions and drop some molds so that you are learning to manipulate your angles of release a bit more...I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of power you have, but reading your posts it is somewhat confusing.
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby cajual » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:13 pm

I can't imagine how you can throw a Predator comfortably 400', yet only throw your mids 300'. A Pred should only go 20-30' farther than your Buzzz...I'm just wondering because I would have to really muscle a Pred on a steep anny and a huge S turn to get 400', yet I can throw a Buzzz close to 300' from a standstill.

Anyway, my overall advice at this point would be to make some decisions and drop some molds so that you are learning to manipulate your angles of release a bit more...I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of power you have, but reading your posts it is somewhat confusing.


I throw in a field that has several light fixtures that I have checked using Google Earth to give me accurate distance feedback, I throw at this as if they are pins and use them as markers. The one I typically throw Hyzers at and attempt to skip up to is 400' and after warming up I typically have little issue skipping my Predator and flexing my Teebirds out to this marker, usually my sword past on both flex and skip shots.

I am not sure if the Buzzz is designed to skip, but when I try to reach this same marker with my Buzzz I typically have nose issues and end up stalling out around 325'. I have a similar pillar right at 300' that I am able to skip my Hornet to and flex my Buzzz to (this requires much more height than my Hornet throw). I do not throw my Buzzz with the same strength as my Predator, I do not close my wrist as much or try to create as much snap, I find that when I do that with my Buzzz it flips for me or I create too much OAT with poor form.

I do not use the same power throwing putters, as I do mids, as I do fairways, as I do drivers. This is something I took from ball golf, and whether reducing my swing / reach back etc is bad form this is how I have approached golf. I have never seen a ball golfer take a full stroke with his putter, whether he has the ability to do so or not.

Is your point that I should try to throw all my discs with the same power? I could be confused here, but I have never approached golf or my throw this way. I associate a certain power range with each club type, or disc type I should say. Is that a bad practice in disc golf? Should I try to throw my Buzzz along the same lines I attempt drivers?

I also take the same steps at the same speed for every throw, footwork consistency seems more difficult to vary then reach back. This could also be false and simple a poor adaption from the golf swing to the disc throw. I find controlling the amount of variants to be the best way of controlling accuracy and consistency.

Again, I work under my own assumptions.

Finally, I have given rounded distances, there are days I struggle to reach 350 with my TBs, and there are days every one hits 400 within 10'.

I will record footage to help with suggestions this weekend, I will also make a point to record some specific distances with specific discs. I am actually going to the field right now to put in a few hours.

Thanks as usual,

**Edit**
Just got back from the field, did some rechecking using Google Earth and obviously I am unable to be precise to the foot, but I threw my predator 8 times and the longest was ~375'.

**Edit 2**
I also wanted to add that my statement about my comfortable distance with my Predator, applies to my C-PDs but is slightly deceptive when read with out any context. Although I described the flight as straight instead of a long, high apex flex shot I do take a line typically 30-45 degrees off my target with a long skip. My distances on this are quoted based on a field, so we are talking about very fast playing greens. When I hit the course I try to play Iron golf, I never try to throw my furthest with ANY mold.

**Edit 3**
drop some molds


To be fair, although I list several molds I really find myself using 4-5 discs unless I believe I need to be using some form of utility throw/disc. When I take my first shot I reach for 1 of 4 discs 95% of the time. I often play rounds alone and will try different shots with other discs, for example I usually play a round before work by myself and will stretch an 18 hole course over a 3 hour period playing upwards of 5-7 discs off the teebox.

I can see how this is very misleading when I list what is in my bag vs what I am working on developing. Currently my go-to discs are what I consider my staples, I own several of each and when I practice in field I throw several of each back to back only working that mold whether it is Buzzz one day or PD another.

I guess this brings to the table the question, that even if I spend the majority of my time developing a set of staple discs, should I be spending any time what so ever on the others? If a normal player has 20 hours a week he devotes to disc and the rule of thumb is for that time to be spread evenly over 4 molds. If I spend 40 hours a week and work 6-8 have I in any fashion moved backwards?
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Re: cajuaL's bag - Looking for some critiques / advice

Postby discspeed » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:42 am

Regarding throwing speed with different speed classes of discs...

I don't come from a ball golf background, so it's hard for me to draw comparisons. I know that in disc golf it is often advantageous to be able to use a full throw with your mids and putters, and it can also clean up aspects of your release and eliminate any OAT that your drivers may cover up. They force you to be slower and smoother and focus your power on your release. It can also get you straighter, more true shots that turn slower and fade less. Again, I cannot draw analogies to ball golf, but I like to know how all my discs fly at different speeds so that I can do more with fewer. This comes with experience though...I'd say for every 2-3 years I've played I've been able to eliminate a disc slot from my bag that I used to need.

You should definitely open up your field practice repertoire to include throwing all your discs at different speeds, and also different lines and release angles. The hyzer skip shot should not be your longest line. Work on getting flat and anhyzer shots with the nose down.
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