Power Pocket Followup

[soupdeluxe]

Hello All
I posted a question in the "incomplete sekret tech" area a couple of weeks ago that probably should have been posted here. The question was about the "power pocket". I thought this pocket was AT the right pec until I read this quote from Blake.

"yeah. the pocket is pretty much when if someone took a snap shot from above, the hand would be at ~9 o'clock and the bicep would be at ~3 o'clock (even though the disc is much lower than the bicep). one thing to note, is that the pocket doesn't start until after the disc passes beyond the right edge of your body."

This was rather eyeopening for me and I have been playing around with moving the disc to this new position with mixed success as the timing is different. I have a couple of followup questions for you all.
1. When doing the right pec drill if your shoulders are pointed at the target and the disc is on your pec are your shoulders already too far ahead or open? Or do you freeze your shoulders at this point allowing the disc to slide forward to the pocket and then uncoil? I find myself keeping my shoulders slightly closed and pulling the disc to my pec and then opening the shoulders. Kind of like Brads latest video shows. I don't think I'm even getting close to the pocket doing this.
2. When my hand is at 9 and Bicep at 3 it feels as though the elbow chop has already started. Is the pocket supposed to form just before the chop, or just somewhere close as long as the shoulders don't open before this.
3. How much lower is the disc than the bicep? I find to make the disc lower than my bicep my hand wants to be way on top of the disc which seems to weaken my grip. If the disc is in the crease of my hand as it should be it seems to create more tension in the forearm and wrist in this position.
Any thoughts or ideas would be fantastic. Thanks
SD

[DiscJay]

Good questions soupdeluxe.

I, too, had quite the epiphany with that statement of Blakes'. I had moved my pull line down a bit from other Blake suggestions and that had helped all by itself. The thumb trailing suggestion of Blake's was also very helpful. What really put it all together mentally for me was the quote you have there.

My only question would be to ask if there is any benefit or is it detrimental if your hand ends up more towards 8 o'clock or even 7 o'clock in the power pocket? I feel like I get my hand and wrist curled around the disc to the 8 or 7 position when really concentrating on getting the disc deep into the power pocket.

Hoping this is kind of a furthering of your questions not a thread jacking.

[Blake_T]

1. When doing the right pec drill if your shoulders are pointed at the target and the disc is on your pec are your shoulders already too far ahead or open? Or do you freeze your shoulders at this point allowing the disc to slide forward to the pocket and then uncoil? I find myself keeping my shoulders slightly closed and pulling the disc to my pec and then opening the shoulders. Kind of like Brads latest video shows. I don't think I'm even getting close to the pocket doing this.

if you start a rotation from 180 to 90 and then abruptly halt your shoulders (when your right shoulder is pointed at the target), the disc should want to slide forward and the elbow will uncoil.

2. When my hand is at 9 and Bicep at 3 it feels as though the elbow chop has already started. Is the pocket supposed to form just before the chop, or just somewhere close as long as the shoulders don't open before this.

if you get way forward into the pocket in this position you won't even have to try to chop your elbow. the tension load on your wrist will be so high it will force everything to uncoil. if you build this feeling, you can gradually try to assist the powering of the uncoil, but i wouldn't try that until after you get a feel for it.

3. How much lower is the disc than the bicep? I find to make the disc lower than my bicep my hand wants to be way on top of the disc which seems to weaken my grip. If the disc is in the crease of my hand as it should be it seems to create more tension in the forearm and wrist in this position.

when i've was doing it earlier this year the disc was probably 10" lower than my bicep (and i have short arms). when you get way on top of the disc you get more natural leverage. if you have to abandon the seam to get the feel, then do so. when i'm throwing this way i am off of the seam by about 80 degrees (there is a happy medium between this though).

My only question would be to ask if there is any benefit or is it detrimental if your hand ends up more towards 8 o'clock or even 7 o'clock in the power pocket? I feel like I get my hand and wrist curled around the disc to the 8 or 7 position when really concentrating on getting the disc deep into the power pocket.

no. 7 or 8 o'clock will yield an even higher tension load BUT... it will also make it more critical of your timing since the disc has to rotate farther to "clear" your wrist. if throws start leaving nose up hyzer, then you failed to clear your wrist. if you think about it this way: moving from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock makes the disc rotate 90 degrees more before it leaves. if you move from 9 to 7, you are picking up another 60 degrees of rotation. i usually reference my position with the base of my thumb, so there's a chance you're at the same position i am describing.

[jtbingster2]

When you talk about not having to be in the seam, Blake, you mean the seam of your hand? Where the disc would usually rest?

[Blake_T]

When you talk about not having to be in the seam, Blake, you mean the seam of your hand? Where the disc would usually rest?

correct. the lower your pull line the more "on top of" the disc you have to get. when that happens the disc usually has to be shifted in the hand to an angle that isn't parallel to the seam.

[soupdeluxe]

Thank you for the tips and advice in response to my questions. I have been playing around trying to make this happen but my timing is to say the least, a tad bit off. Lower pull line and going from 180 to 90 with the shoulders and getting the disc to the pocket will take me a while to get the hang of. I will tell you though, when I used to throw and get the disc into what I thought was the pocket but was really my right pec and closed shoulder it felt like I was all bound up if that makes sense. I don't think I could get out of my own way to even throw properly. The 180 to 90 feels much more free at the true pocket position. My deal with this is I want to fire the shoulders way too early doing this. The more I mess with my throw the more I realize what you DON'T do is more important than I ever gave credit to. Meaning having the patience to JUST WAIT till the arm floats by the pec and into the pocket before engaging the shoulders. I'm not sure why this is so hard for me, it amounts to waiting a fraction of a second and then going with the shoulders, easy right? I think at some level I have not bought in mentally. I know this post sounds like the rantings of a frustrated thrower but rest assured I am enjoying learning to throw and most of allthe game.
Thanks again
SD

[Blake_T]

most people are accustomed to just twirling through their rotation.

if you try and do this, you either don't snap it (slip on release) or you grip lock and snap it 50 degrees right of the target.

the purpose of trying to come up with new drills is to give someone a different action to focus on that will correct said problem. doing "different" drills using the same normal motion as a throw does nothing beneficial and this is the stage where 85% of people give up.

the first time someone snaps the crap out of the disc they know there's something "else" out there that they weren't doing before. chasing that feeling is what most people really want but rarely do.

[Whiz]

I had some good throws today and I noticed that one thing that seemed to allow me to keep my shoulder from rotating too early was a correct heel pivot along with the left leg travelling (roughly) behind the right leg prior to the hit (RHBH). I think this is perhaps just part of the heel pivot but pivoting on the ball of my foot seems to open my hips and shoulders way too early. This delayed shoulder open was allowing me to keep my hand on the opposite side of the disc (similar to Blake's recommendation of keeping the thumb pointed away from the target as long as possible) and get the disc much, much closer to the power pocket. I was getting a much better tendon load and I was putting some destroyers out to around 425'-450'. The last key was bringing the disc forward very, very close/tight to my torso and slightly below the right pec.

I have a lot of work to do though because I can feel I am not leveraging the disc and throwing using the disc's weight. I am throwing close to as far as I was at my max distance in the spring but I cannot feel the weight of the disc. I probably just need to break things down and go back to the hammer drill trying to feel the weight again. Frustrating and encouraging all at once. To everyone out there working on these same things, keep up the practice. It will come with time.

[soupdeluxe]

Continuing to work on shoulder stop and getting the disc to pocket. I found I was getting it well forward but also away from my body. It took your post Whiz to realize this. Once I moved the disc in, stopped the shoulder, kept my thumb pointed at the target as long as possible while moving the disc to the pocket some neat things started to happen. When I allowed the disc to get to this point it was not like I mentioned in previous posts that I felt "more free" to open up, there was no choice. The disc went from being between my bicep and hand to the other side of my hand in a fraction of a second. I could not have stopped it if I tried. It felt as though it wanted to take a piece of my finger with it as well. This is a whole new feeling for me. I find I can only repeat this with a very short reach back. My sternum or left pec at most. I feel as I am finally doing the right pec drill properly though. Not too bad, that only took a year and a half. I can see now why assisting with the wrist requires such great timing, that "in to out" move the disc makes is so much faster its all I can do to hold on. What is also crazy is I am not losing much if any distance even with the micro reach back. I wish I could have all that energy I wasted on my run up and use it for something good, it sure was not getting to the disc!
Thanks
SD

[Blake_T]

you are basically getting it.

the trick is to learn to "tug it" with your rip pinch harder and harder as you progress. messing around with a two-finger grip may help improve your timing a bit more as well since it's almost impossible to hold on unless everything is clicking.

[JR]

I would add, that it is difficult to hold on to a disc until the rip is 5 o'clock. And i'm not saying i'm doing things right.

[Whiz]

I have been practicing diligently lately and I have a routine that I have been working with that seems to work. I have been having a tough time for quite a while preventing my shoulders from opening too early (don't we all) and with a combination of Brad's closed shoulder drill, the right pec drill and Ron Russell's putting style I had a practicing revelation. Give it a try and tell me what you think.

So, the idea is basically to do the right pec drill but with a few stipulations. If you do this a bunch of times you should get the feel of the disc pivoting correctly. Find a target or a basket and stand 25'-50' away from it. The idea is NOT to throw the disc but to focus on your finishing point. What you want to do is do the right pec drill VERY SLOWLY and you want to

A: Finish with your shoulders in a direct line with the basket. This means your right shoulder ends up pointing at the basket and you should not follow through any farther.

B: Finish with your arm, hand and thumb all pointed straight at the basket.

C: The disc should not come out of your hand until your arm/shoulders/thumb are all in a straight line pointing at the basket.

Gradually build up the speed with which you are doing this but MAKE SURE YOU ARE DOING A AND B. You can move farther away from the basket as you build speed but again, make sure to do A and B. The point of this drill is the same as that of the right pec drill (I think). It should teach the feeling that you are going for. I have been making some very big strides with gaining the feel for the disc pivot with this. It also demonstrates how you have to pause the shoulders to get a correct pivot.


Try it and tell me your results!

[JR]

I did that years ago and the benefit of this over the hammer drill is, that everything happens in higher speeds closer to a real throw with more parts of a real throw having been incorporated into the drill. I think it may be beneficial for muscle memory thus making adjustments probably easier to achieve, because the old stuff, that works is automated so you only fine tune, what comes naturally. And what you change is more like an addition than a new thing altogether.

[Jewdy]

The lower/more forward power pocket has been a real wake up call for me. I was pulling just below (maybe 1") my bicep. I thought that I was getting the disc forward enough, I was getting good flight paths but was having trouble spraying shots right and left. I tried moving the pocket lower and forward with similar results.

The first time I realized the benefit of a lower pull line was throwing a roc on a 290' hole. I did a small shuffle of an X step, next to no reach back and over threw the basket with what felt like no effort at all. When the disc got forward enough everything just happened automatically. There was definitely snap and more spin than I am used to. I can recreate the feeling using an abbreviated reach back and run up but can not transfer that feeling into full power throws.

I am enjoying better lines, getting similar distances to my old pull line and am even having an easier time achieving nose down. I feel like there is so much distance potential there that I am having trouble tapping into though. Good stuff guys!

[Blake_T]

you have definitely found the pocket. one thing you can do is to try and "power" the finish and turn that 300' roc throw into a 340' roc throw with the same abbreviated reachback and shuffle step.