What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

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What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Steve » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:15 pm

So what does the complete golf bag of throws consist of?

Basic Disc Golf Bag: Please show what you would consider to be the basic shots of any disc golfers bag that need to be solid to shoot great rounds on any course. What are the first types of shots that a disc golfer should learn? What should they spend their time becoming 100% solid with in order to lower their score. Please describe shot and type of disc you could accomplish it best with. Where you would use the type of shot is important as well. Not really interested in talking about specific discs like buzzzes or rocs. I am more interested in types of discs like understable mids, and crazy overstable fairway drivers for example.

Advanced Shots:Shots or techniques that could come in handy if you knew when and where to use them. These should be practiced after you have completed your Basic Bag. These could be such things as grenades or pancake shots for example.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Steve » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:37 pm

My Basic Bag: RHBH dominant

Straight putt inside the circle - I push putt with a stable putter

Straight putt outside the circle - I get down low and straddle putt an understable putter

Short hyzer approach - Standstill with an overstable putter

Straight approach - Standstill with a stable putter

Short and long annys - Standstill or run up with a stable/understable mid that won't pull out of the turn. Long arching shot thrown left and high of the target and allowed to float in. Great for going around trees or corners.

Straight drives - A stable driver thrown without much left to right movement. This is good for hitting gaps or narrow fairways. Stable mid or fairway driver for shorter lengths and stable control driver for longer drives.

Big hyzers - Sweeping lines thrown out to the right and allowed to come back in left at the end. I use overstable putters all the way up to slightly overstable control drivers. One of the easiest lines to judge distance on for me.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Mark Ellis » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:32 am

Steve wrote:So what does the complete golf bag of throws consist of?

Basic Disc Golf Bag: Please show what you would consider to be the basic shots of any disc golfers bag that need to be solid to shoot great rounds on any course. What are the first types of shots that a disc golfer should learn? What should they spend their time becoming 100% solid with in order to lower their score. Please describe shot and type of disc you could accomplish it best with. Where you would use the type of shot is important as well. Not really interested in talking about specific discs like buzzzes or rocs. I am more interested in types of discs like understable mids, and crazy overstable fairway drivers for example.

Advanced Shots:Shots or techniques that could come in handy if you knew when and where to use them. These should be practiced after you have completed your Basic Bag. These could be such things as grenades or pancake shots for example.


There are 9 basic shots. Straight, right and left at each of these distances: Short, medium and long. So 3 X 3 =9.

A great player can throw each of these shots better with one disc than a weak player can throw any of them with an unlimited choice of discs. But the great player can throw the various shots better with a variety of discs and needs to because the great player competes against other great players. Btw, I do not say this because I am a great player but I have occasionally been in their presence.

The starting point for a beginning player is to figure out how a particular disc tends to fly in his hands with his standard motion (flawed and inconsistent though that motion may be). With practice an insightful beginner will try to throw each disc flat and straight, learning his discs and what they do. But most beginners are not insightful so instead try to manipulate the flights of their discs, bending the lines they seek and gaining some small degree of control.

While throwing straight and bending shots are both needed skills, the better a player becomes at throwing straight the faster their advancement. Most shots do not require more than minor bending off a straight plane (with skill and the right disc for the job).
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby zj1002 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:31 am

Mark Ellis wrote:
Steve wrote:So what does the complete golf bag of throws consist of?

Basic Disc Golf Bag: Please show what you would consider to be the basic shots of any disc golfers bag that need to be solid to shoot great rounds on any course. What are the first types of shots that a disc golfer should learn? What should they spend their time becoming 100% solid with in order to lower their score. Please describe shot and type of disc you could accomplish it best with. Where you would use the type of shot is important as well. Not really interested in talking about specific discs like buzzzes or rocs. I am more interested in types of discs like understable mids, and crazy overstable fairway drivers for example.

Advanced Shots:Shots or techniques that could come in handy if you knew when and where to use them. These should be practiced after you have completed your Basic Bag. These could be such things as grenades or pancake shots for example.


There are 9 basic shots. Straight, right and left at each of these distances: Short, medium and long. So 3 X 3 =9.

A great player can throw each of these shots better with one disc than a weak player can throw any of them with an unlimited choice of discs. But the great player can throw the various shots better with a variety of discs and needs to because the great player competes against other great players. Btw, I do not say this because I am a great player but I have occasionally been in their presence.

The starting point for a beginning player is to figure out how a particular disc tends to fly in his hands with his standard motion (flawed and inconsistent though that motion may be). With practice an insightful beginner will try to throw each disc flat and straight, learning his discs and what they do. But most beginners are not insightful so instead try to manipulate the flights of their discs, bending the lines they seek and gaining some small degree of control.

While throwing straight and bending shots are both needed skills, the better a player becomes at throwing straight the faster their advancement. Most shots do not require more than minor bending off a straight plane (with skill and the right disc for the job).


this exactly
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Whiz » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:33 am

Basic shots: Throwing

Advanced shots: Putting
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby soupdeluxe » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:30 pm

Hey All
Interesting topic. I ask myself all the time what shots I need to add to my bag. I have been working so hard on BH's I have ignored all else. This has caused me some problems when I need a shot I don't know to get out of trouble.
Lately I have been practicing at a park with lots of trees. I pick one tree and work on different lines and ways to get the disc there. I usually use XD's and Rocs as the shots are usually between 50 to 200 feet. Two discs, lots of different lines and angles. I think this is a great way to learn what these discs can and will do. Enter Mr. Ellis and a different way of looking at this that I think makes sense as well. Correct me if I am wrong, Mark you advocate throwing all discs flat with only minor angle changes and letting the discs flight charactistics do the rest? What I like about this is you are concentrating on learning one shot, removing lots of variables. The two things that give me pause are throwing flat or slight curves is a luxury on lots of courses or if you play like me and are "off the fairway" allot. It also seem as though you would have to carry quite a few more discs to cover all the situations that can arise during a round. Different pros and cons and way to look at this great game. Thanks for the insight
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:34 pm

soupdeluxe wrote:Hey All
Enter Mr. Ellis and a different way of looking at this that I think makes sense as well. Correct me if I am wrong, Mark you advocate throwing all discs flat with only minor angle changes and letting the discs flight charactistics do the rest? What I like about this is you are concentrating on learning one shot, removing lots of variables. The two things that give me pause are throwing flat or slight curves is a luxury on lots of courses or if you play like me and are "off the fairway" allot. It also seem as though you would have to carry quite a few more discs to cover all the situations that can arise during a round. Different pros and cons and way to look at this great game. Thanks for the insight
SD


Not quite. I advocate learning to throw flat and straight as a fundamental way to improve your skills.

By playing your home course time after time after time you will come to learn 18 individual drives. That is fine but the next course has 18 different drives. Then the next course will have 18 even different drives. You can see the pattern here. Memorizing individual shots is a slow way to learn the game. You are learning a particular disc thrown at a particular angle at a particular speed interacting with a particular terrain.

If instead you learned how to throw flat and straight with all the discs in your bag you develop skills which transfer readily from course to course: OVERALL SKILLS. But we all know many holes are not straight, so are we ignoring them? No because bending a shot happens naturally by using overstable or understable discs and throwing them flat and straight. Slightly missing off flat and straight will bend shots too and maybe bend them to a greater extent than you might guess.

In other words the most valuable skill is throwing flat and straight. Once you can do that shaping a line is relatively easy.

A shot which starts off flat and straight will glide better, improving not only your control but your distance without over-torquing it.

This is just a different mind set which may be helpful.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby JR » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:58 pm

One could set limits and argue about the necessity of approaches to playing ad nauseum. From grammatical point of view a complete bag of shots includes everything possible. Most of the time one does not absolutely need rollers or flex shots and trick shots, but inevitably they will come in handy too on top of the nine throws Mark listed. And there's sidearm and overhead throwing as well. Few deny the possibility of throwing the disc vertical but the opposite of overhead. Probably even fewer use them and call them usually necessary :-)
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby JHern » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:15 am

Steve wrote:So what does the complete golf bag of throws consist of?


This is defined by the course you're playing, the wind, the distances, etc..

Mark Ellis wrote:...I advocate learning to throw flat and straight as a fundamental way to improve your skills...


Exactly, if you can throw flat (must be able to go up, down, and level, adjust nose angle and speed, etc.), then you can throw hyzer by adding a tick of hyzer (or throwing a more over-stable disc) or throw anhyzer by adding a tick of anhyzer (or throwing a more under-stable disc). It's best if you start from a throwing-flat basic state reference frame, since it offers you the most flexibility in choosing the different options to add onto that.

Also, if you're either FH or BH dominant, you need more shots than if you can switch between each style and simply hyzer your way to victory.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Sagecoast » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:11 am

Mr. Ellis,
When you speak of throwing straight, do you mean the initial flight or the resulting landing? For example, picking a spot you want the disc to land and then using your alignment/aim and the discs properties to get there?

Thanks for your insight.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Dag » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:14 am

Mark Ellis wrote:...most beginners are not insightful so instead try to manipulate the flights of their discs, bending the lines they seek and gaining some small degree of control.


How well I know. The thing is, the part I love the most about the game is manipulating the flight of the disc. Compound flight paths are a thing of beauty and to me are worth more than the end score when I'm playing solely for myself (as opposed to doubles or such when I'll play much more conservative lines). Flexes and flips, late turnovers and stalls, those are the things that make my day. These wouldn't make sense for me if the competition were my primary focus as the odds are against me, risk of an error far outweighing advantage of a success. I've been playing for less than three years. I'm pushing fifty, not particularly coordinated and real life severely restricts my available play/practice time. Mebbe some day, with a dint of determination, I can pwn the crap outta [bottlerocket] MA2 or 3 [/bottlerocket] but I'm having fun here and now. School of hard knocks? End thread drift.
...there was a time when you were taught to find the best disc for you, not the best disc for your situation on the course, which is how they are sold now. IMO, the flight charts are basically there to point out all the stuff you dont have in your bag and why you suck.

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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby JHern » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:50 pm

I think it is more complicated than just the 9 shots that Mark Ellis was proposing as a complete set (left, straight, right; short, medium long). I've seen so many kinds of holes and fairways. I've seen routes that require the disc to be thrown high, stall out, and then move backward again. I've seen routes that require the disc to turn over while going uphill, then hyzer down the other side of the hill. I've seen all kinds of crazy stuff that isn't covered by a simple spectrum of throws. And to me, these are the most fun (in agreement with Dag).

The degrees of freedom in a disc throw that the disc golfer is able to manipulate are at least eight (minimum):
-Spin orientation (BH vs FH)
-Hyzer angle
-Nose angle
-Speed
-Spin rate
-Initial throw trajectory
-Choice of disc
-Forced wobble/OAT

By skillfully manipulating these variables, you can get an infinite variety of different flights. You can also add the timing of the throw, if the wind is gusting in short intervals (i.e., purposely wait 10 seconds for a gust to die down, or not, depending on what you intend).

Of course, we don't always manipulate all these variables independently. For example:
-The spin rate typically goes up as the speed increases, so they are coupled together; although at short ranges it can be advantageous to manipulate spin, and many top pros do so consciously (by adding more or less "touch").
-The nose angle should usually be oriented relative to the initial throw trajectory (to put the disc down the desired line), or else the flight is robbed of power as it rapidly changes direction out of the hand. On the other hand, it can still be useful to "air bounce" a disc to avoid certain obstacles.
-Etc.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Mark Ellis » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:14 pm

JHern wrote:I think it is more complicated than just the 9 shots that Mark Ellis was proposing as a complete set (left, straight, right; short, medium long)....


Well that is not what I said. I said there are 9 BASIC shots.

Steve's original question asked about BASIC and ADVANCED shots to comprise a Complete Bag of Shots. This question is so broad it is sort of like asking everything we know about throwing a disc. So rather than tackling the entire question (or completely ignoring the thread) I gave a BASIC answer.


$%^&(*&^%$#@^&**&^@^&*(*&^%$#

Whiz gave an even more simplified answer than I did. Being inspired by his clever answer I would offer:

Basic Shots: Any shots you are good at.

Advanced Shots: Any shots you are not good at.

@#&*(*&%$%^&*(*^%$()(*&^%$%^&*(

Sagecoast inquired:
When you speak of throwing straight, do you mean the initial flight or the resulting landing? For example, picking a spot you want the disc to land and then using your alignment/aim and the discs properties to get there?

My response: Straight like an arrow. Straight like a frozen rope. Straight like a line (in mathematics). The longer you can make a shot stay on a straight path the better.

During the initial flight and the continuing until the disc slows down toward the end of its flight you want to have the ability to make a disc go straight when that shot is called for. Compare the flights of an Ultimate disc and a Golf disc: The Ultimate disc goes straight pretty easily but Golf discs (especially drivers) generally do not. This is a function of the design of the discs and allows drivers to glide so far. When most of us first threw golf discs we thought they were crazy overstable, cutting so hard at the end of their flights they were uncontrollable to us.

The gold standard for a great control driver is a disc which, in YOUR hands, at the Speed YOU throw, when thrown flat will start out straight, stay basically straight in flight and finish straight as well. I have some runs of overstable Flashes which do this for me at about 80% power. If you keep looking and keep working on throwing flat you may find the driver which does this for you also. But even if you never run into that semi-magical disc, finding something close to it is still great.

It is much easier to make a putter or a mid go dead nuts straight than a driver. Beat up versions of Rattlers, Magnets and Buzzz's work best for me.

For every disc in your bag (from flippy putters to overstable drivers) learning how to get it to flatten out in the middle of its flight will teach you better control of that disc. Most shots in the game are about hitting a line. Straight is often the safest line. Once throwing straight becomes a conscious goal you will become a better player.

But most holes are not perfectly straight so why concentrate on throwing straight? Because there is greater carry-over value, greater skill acquisition. The game is easier once you can throw straight.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Whiz » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:35 pm

I guess I consider basic (or staple shots) to be a backhand and a forehand. You (ideally) should be able to throw everything from hyzers to hyzer-flips to flat to anhyzers with both styles of throwing.

I consider advanced shots to be less common and somewhat more touchy/difficult shots to throw. These would include grenades, thumbers, tomahawks, backhand/forehand/thumber rollers and skip shots. Those are just the ones I throw. Others would also include air bounce shots (very rarely necessary imo) and chicken wing (also not necessary imo). The advanced shots are really not essential to playing the game, however, they can often offer an easier line than a backhand or forehand.

There are plenty of pros who throw exclusively backhand and a few (Mr. Ellis, Geoff Bennett) who throw mostly forehand. If you are skilled enough in the "basic" styles of throwing you really don't need the other throws to be a good player, but they can improve your game greatly. One temptation though, is to spend TOO much time developing the "advanced" shots and not enough on a solid backhand and forehand. The backhand and forehand are the most used shots in the game and will, all other things being equal, improve your game more than having an equal skill at throwing, say, forehand rollers.

I hope that helps.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Pwingles » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:08 am

Imo, a truly complete bag of shots is the ability to Step up to your lie/tee and see every possible line regardless of your skill, preference or confidence in the shot/type of throw. While almost simultaniously disregarding the lines that arent advantagious for any number of reasons (wind, footing, ceiling, ability etc). Then executing the shot that fits the situation best a very high percentage at a time without thinking yourself in a circle and psyching yourself out. You dont have to be able to throw 25 different types of shots but it helps to not be so linear in your thinking and visualizing of lines either.
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