What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby J Espi » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:46 am

great thread, as always love the insight of Mr Ellis, he makes the best posts and videos on the web! Personally I throw thumbers whenever I can on a left to right shot and even throw them far on low lines so I throw:
hyers: short to far
flat: short to far
hyers flips: short to far, but I only really acheive them to great success with beat eagles
anhyers: distance lines
thumbers: from 75-300 ft
rollers: bh and fh
nose up putter approaches
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby money 21 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:51 am

By playing your home course time after time after time you will come to learn 18 individual drives. That is fine but the next course has 18 different drives. Then the next course will have 18 even different drives. You can see the pattern here. Memorizing individual shots is a slow way to learn the game. You are learning a particular disc thrown at a particular angle at a particular speed interacting with a particular terrain.

this is a problem i run into I have one course that i can play at regularly. luckly it is very wooded and offers different lines of the tee. sometimes to practice when i am out by myself i will throw the lines i am least comfortable with to practice these. I do this even more with up shots. I walk up to my lie and pick three routs (if availbe) to the pin and throw the easiest for me then throw the most difficult seeing if i can beat my sirst shot. this has improved my confidence with more difficult up shots.


Side note the best way to complete your bag is to practice your putting and improving your confident putting range so you don't have the pressure to put your drive or up shot in drop in range.
Last edited by money 21 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Steve » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:46 am

I guess I was just looking for advice on what shots a person would have to be confident in order to play a sturdy round. I see all these threads about building bags around discs but not much about the types of shots or skills that make a bag complete.

Maybe something like this

Basic Bag

Putting:
Need to be 100% confident within 15'
Need to know how to compensate for head and tail wind while putting
Need to know how to adjust for uphill and downhill putts

Approaching:
Need to be confident to hit straight, hyzer and anny approaches within a 30' circle most of the time
Need to be confident with short throws into different types of wind and get predictable results
Need to be able to judge distance from basket and assess dangers in between

Driving:
Need to know putters, mids, and drivers that work well with your runup
Need to be able to assess dangers off the pad
Need to know how to pick out a good landing zone with a good approach/putt line to hit

Getting out of Trouble:
Need to know how to pick lines out to a safe landing area
Need to know non-dominant throws with a little confidence

These are better examples of what I was looking for. I am at least at the levels above and am not concerned with my specific game. Just looking for what everyone else thinks is mandatory and what is better focused on later after developing the basics.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:35 am

Steve wrote:I guess I was just looking for advice on what shots a person would have to be confident in order to play a sturdy round. I see all these threads about building bags around discs but not much about the types of shots or skills that make a bag complete.

Maybe something like this

Basic Bag

Putting:
Need to be 100% confident within 15'
Need to know how to compensate for head and tail wind while putting
Need to know how to adjust for uphill and downhill putts

Approaching:
Need to be confident to hit straight, hyzer and anny approaches within a 30' circle most of the time
Need to be confident with short throws into different types of wind and get predictable results
Need to be able to judge distance from basket and assess dangers in between

Driving:
Need to know putters, mids, and drivers that work well with your runup
Need to be able to assess dangers off the pad
Need to know how to pick out a good landing zone with a good approach/putt line to hit

Getting out of Trouble:
Need to know how to pick lines out to a safe landing area
Need to know non-dominant throws with a little confidence

These are better examples of what I was looking for. I am at least at the levels above and am not concerned with my specific game. Just looking for what everyone else thinks is mandatory and what is better focused on later after developing the basics.


The PDGA has published something like this for the various divisions, trying to define the individual skills needed to compete in each division (I think authored by Guru, former PDGA Executive Director Brian Hoeniger).

Really, handicap ratings do a much better job of defining skill levels because there are so many different ways to shoot the same score on a course. Guy #1 could drive well and putt poorly and finish at even par. Guy #2 could drive feebly but upshoot and putt wonderfully and finish at even par. At the point someone possessed of a "Complete Bag of Shots" and was consistent with them, we would call him a top pro. But someone we know to be a top Pro (by handicap ratings) might still have a few significant flaws and overcome those flaws with exceptional skills at what they do best.

Everyone (except the delusional) knows their own strengths and weaknesses. Playing tournaments at different courses will crystallize what those weaknesses are. To get to the Complete Bag, practice your weaknesses.

I have played with fine Pro players who had glaring weaknesses (or maybe better described as lacking certain shots). I know players who have no overhead game (due to injury) even to just pitch out 100 feet. Or no forehands or no rollers or poor tournament head (or in my case, no backhand outside of 250').

The most important shot in the game is the putt. More than any other shot, the putt determines who wins and who loses any given round. So if I had to bet on two guys, one with the Complete Bag and the other The Superior Putter, I put my money on the Putter.

The jump putt may be the most devastating weapon in the game. I have seen rounds where players make everything within 100 feet. Driving/upshooting accuracy doesn't mean much for a jump putter on their game. Bad luck or rollaways don't matter. Most sins can be erased with a blunt edged disc.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Wyno » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:42 am

Mark Ellis wrote:Most sins can be erased with a blunt edged disc.

The quote-master strikes again :)
I'll grab this for my sig, thanks!
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:09 am

J Espi wrote:great thread, as always love the insight of Mr Ellis, he makes the best posts and videos on the web! Personally I throw thumbers whenever I can on a left to right shot and even throw them far on low lines so I throw:
hyers: short to far
flat: short to far
hyers flips: short to far, but I only really acheive them to great success with beat eagles
anhyers: distance lines
thumbers: from 75-300 ft
rollers: bh and fh
nose up putter approaches


J Espi,

Can I put you in charge of negotiating my sponsorship bonuses? At least try to keep me on the team.

Thanks.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby JHern » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:03 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:
JHern wrote:I think it is more complicated than just the 9 shots that Mark Ellis was proposing as a complete set (left, straight, right; short, medium long)....


Well that is not what I said. I said there are 9 BASIC shots....My response: Straight like an arrow. Straight like a frozen rope. Straight like a line (in mathematics). The longer you can make a shot stay on a straight path the better...The game is easier once you can throw straight.


Don't get me wrong, I most certainly agree with you that this is the most important basic skill to learn. Note that I agreed with you, before I disagreed :lol: ...

JHern wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:...I advocate learning to throw flat and straight as a fundamental way to improve your skills...


Exactly, if you can throw flat (must be able to go up, down, and level, adjust nose angle and speed, etc.), then you can throw hyzer by adding a tick of hyzer (or throwing a more over-stable disc) or throw anhyzer by adding a tick of anhyzer (or throwing a more under-stable disc)...


But in any case, any new player should follow Mark Ellis' advice. He is one of the best disc golf teachers out there, and gives it away for free. I would be very disappointed if Discraft no longer sponsored Mark Ellis.
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Re: What is a Complete Bag of Shots?

Postby ChrisWoj » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:29 pm

Basic shot: Learning everything with your dominant hand.

Advanced shot: Learning everything again with your non-dominant hand. :)
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