pDGA LOLz

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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby veganray » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:45 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:that paragraph where you attempt to endorse the pdga made me dislike you more.

FTFY
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby JHern » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:30 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:that paragraph where you attempt to endorse the pdga made me dislike them more.


Yeah, I tried...but probably failed. This isn't an easy task!
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby jsun3thousand » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:28 pm

JHern wrote:
Frank Delicious wrote:that paragraph where you attempt to endorse the pdga made me dislike them more.


Yeah, I tried...but probably failed. This isn't an easy task!


changing the complexion of the pdga is hard work.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby Working Stiff » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:51 pm

I got an PDGA innovation grant for my admittedly non-innovative kids disc golf program (give kids discs, teach them to play...duh) so I will not be complaining about the PDGA this year. :silent:

Everyone has their price. Evidently my price is $500. :wtf:
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby JHern » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:25 pm

Working Stiff wrote:I got an PDGA innovation grant for my admittedly non-innovative kids disc golf program (give kids discs, teach them to play...duh) so I will not be complaining about the PDGA this year. :silent:

Everyone has their price. Evidently my price is $500. :wtf:


If PDGA is giving you $500 to teach kids to play disc golf, then I consider that money well spent.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby JR » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:20 pm

Congratulations Stiffy! Me and akuf here taught putting and were unfortunately able to tell too little about DG in general to over 100 university students in one event last fall. And i lost money doing that, because i put in some of my discs as prizes for the top 3 in a putting competition. We had so many visitors and so few staff that we were not able to tell most of them much at all about anything else than putting. We had a video of a local event Tali Open 2009 running the whole time, but it did not seem to attract much attention. No wonder, because it was the opening event of the season for that university and there were a couple of dozen other sport exhibitions to visit to compete for the attention and the time.

With 500 $ i think some portable baskets and prize discs would be well spent unless you have even more engaging and taking up the sport encouraging ideas about what you can do with the money.

Hope you and the kids you'll teach have a nice time and many of them start playing the sport.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby JR » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:23 pm

Agreed on all counts except that you do more than probably 99,x % of disc golfers to improve the sport.

JHern wrote:I agree that PDGA is far from perfect, and I'm also in accord with many of your criticisms. And I haven't been shy about telling it the way I see it, either. I've told members of the board that I thought it had only achieved the status of being a "glorified tournament league," and that it has failed to make itself relevant to non-tournament players (the sanctioned kind), thus isolating itself from over 90% of disc golfers. As for me personally, I play at least 10X more non-sanctioned tournaments/leagues than PDGA-sanctioned tournaments. On top of that, I would judge myself to be more PDGA-active than 96% of all disc golfers...so in summary, they're totally missing the boat by piddling around with only a tiny fraction of the sport.

But if only the regular tournament players will fund it, the entire organization will atrophy and contract. I think their active membership is only roughly 20% of total PDGA numbers (50K as of last year)...this is a very low rate, and they should already have panicked and done some major overhauls...they're way too late to respond to this membership crisis, and I still don't see any sense of urgency from PDGA's board to address it.

Still, there are reasons to continue supporting PDGA, even without playing tournaments. I want PDGA to exist, even in its imperfect form. I'll give them my membership dollars just for maintaining the int'l disc golf center and the courses around it...even if I never go to Georgia. They keep a database of tournaments and events and courses, which is very nice to have. I like getting a magazine, even if it isn't always the best (still, there are nuggets in there that I enjoy...especially the history stuff). They do a fair enough job with rules and standards (although some may need further reform in upcoming years). I don't really care about ratings, or their accuracy. I like that there is some organization facilitating big tournaments and developing competition between top players. Etc..
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby JR » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:34 pm

Dunno about how the movers and shakers at PDGA feel about this, but i for one thank you for all the efforts you've put into making the sport better. It's people like you tat the PDGA should support at elast as much as the touring pros. The pros get paid, when they do well, the people that grow the sport don't get paid as it is unless you own a disc manufacturing plant. To some extent that is forgivable at this this stage in the evolution of the sport, but it needs to change. The PDGA should realize, that there are ways to go in growing the sport and adding coursing and making people more aware of ti and supporting the people doing the heavy lifting of adding courses and attracting more players and sponsors should be of raised importance. Sure the media support for 2011 and 2012 is good, but it needs to grow beyond that eventually and fast. Adding new courses will add player count even without direct PDGA involment. Supporting telling people that have received a new course in their neighborhood and arranging a welcoming event should be a cost effective way to grow the sport and making it better.

If you want better top tier events, you cater for the top players and those players that want to watch the events. Not so good for new player and sponsor recruitment. So in the long run adding player base with root level work is also adding the benefit of adding viewer count to the top events. Thus attracting more players and sponsors to fund the improvements also in the top tier events. It is time to realize, that we are not yet a major sport like soccer or many motor sports where businesses outside the sports have revenue to make by advertizing and sponsoring. If DG is to be taken to that level we need more paying customers for whom it is sane to pay to advertize and sponsor the events. Right?

biscgolf wrote:what gets old is being hit up for more and more money each year for services which show no sign of improving or even deteriorate. if you play lots of tournaments there is plenty of reason to join, if not there is not enough value there to justify it for me anymore. i have said a million times that the pdga needs some sort of low cost essentially non-playing membership for those who don't wish to play tournaments on a regular basis. they have seen fit to offer discounts to former members but nothing for those of us who have stuck around all these years.

i have been a member since 1995, have run roughly 30 pdga events from c tier to a-tier, was regional coordinator at one point and then state coordinator for the entire time the position has existed prior to last year, put 4 courses in the ground myself and designed/contributed to the design of at least 10 more and i am damn sick of being asked to pay $75 a year in membership when all i get out of it is cheap insurance for my tournament (the main thing the ORG does well), an obviously flawed rating system, and a website (which is the pdga's primary interface with the vast majority of their membership) which doesn't work worth a rat's ass.

maybe in 2013 i'll take advantage of the former member's discount.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby Working Stiff » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:02 am

JR wrote:Dunno about how the movers and shakers at PDGA feel about this, but i for one thank you for all the efforts you've put into making the sport better. It's people like you tat the PDGA should support at elast as much as the touring pros. The pros get paid, when they do well, the people that grow the sport don't get paid as it is unless you own a disc manufacturing plant. To some extent that is forgivable at this this stage in the evolution of the sport, but it needs to change. The PDGA should realize, that there are ways to go in growing the sport and adding coursing and making people more aware of ti and supporting the people doing the heavy lifting of adding courses and attracting more players and sponsors should be of raised importance. Sure the media support for 2011 and 2012 is good, but it needs to grow beyond that eventually and fast. Adding new courses will add player count even without direct PDGA involment. Supporting telling people that have received a new course in their neighborhood and arranging a welcoming event should be a cost effective way to grow the sport and making it better.

If you want better top tier events, you cater for the top players and those players that want to watch the events. Not so good for new player and sponsor recruitment. So in the long run adding player base with root level work is also adding the benefit of adding viewer count to the top events. Thus attracting more players and sponsors to fund the improvements also in the top tier events. It is time to realize, that we are not yet a major sport like soccer or many motor sports where businesses outside the sports have revenue to make by advertizing and sponsoring. If DG is to be taken to that level we need more paying customers for whom it is sane to pay to advertize and sponsor the events. Right?

biscgolf wrote:what gets old is being hit up for more and more money each year for services which show no sign of improving or even deteriorate. if you play lots of tournaments there is plenty of reason to join, if not there is not enough value there to justify it for me anymore. i have said a million times that the pdga needs some sort of low cost essentially non-playing membership for those who don't wish to play tournaments on a regular basis. they have seen fit to offer discounts to former members but nothing for those of us who have stuck around all these years.

i have been a member since 1995, have run roughly 30 pdga events from c tier to a-tier, was regional coordinator at one point and then state coordinator for the entire time the position has existed prior to last year, put 4 courses in the ground myself and designed/contributed to the design of at least 10 more and i am damn sick of being asked to pay $75 a year in membership when all i get out of it is cheap insurance for my tournament (the main thing the ORG does well), an obviously flawed rating system, and a website (which is the pdga's primary interface with the vast majority of their membership) which doesn't work worth a rat's ass.

maybe in 2013 i'll take advantage of the former member's discount.
It's the history of our sport, though. While you can argue about the actual origins of the game, the PDGA evolves from the IFA. The IFA was a marketing idea, Wham-O's attempt to make a toy into sporting goods. To do that they created a professional Frisbee movement that had no real amateur base and propped it up with their own cash. That gave this illusion that there were the necessary elements to support professional Frisbee playing when really all that was there was Wham-O's cash. It's been almost 30 years now since that cash disappeared, and yet we still can't let go of this dream of professional disc golf.

There was the idea that once amateur play developed, there would be that base of players to support the sport and professional disc golf would thrive. When I started playing there were a little over 400 courses in the World. Now there are close to 4,000. If you would have asked me 20 years ago if I thought professional disc golf would take off if we had 4,000 courses, I would have said "Hell yes." As it turns out I and a lot of other disc golfers were pretty naive about the numbers we were going to need to attract big sponsorship. With all the courses and all the new players, we still are nowhere close to the numbers advertisers are looking for. Even after all that work and all the success we have had, that dream of professional disc golf seems even farther way to me than it did 20 years ago.

The PDGA sells that dream. The basic idea behind the PDGA is to make that dream a reality. They do other stuff, but the goal of the PDGA is that dream. Once you become like me and you just don't buy into the dream anymore, it's hard to get behind the PDGA. To me it seems like throwing a lot of money, time and resources into something that just isn't going to happen.

From an institutional end, that would be a dramatic and possibly devastating shift. How exactly do you get a member group together and say "Hey, you know this goal we have all shared for the last 35 years? Yeah, it's not gonna happen. What do you want to do now?" I'm not sure the PDGA would survive totally reinventing itself overnight. So it comes in baby steps, which is way too slow to keep somebody like me that has given up on the dream happy. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

That's even if you buy that the PDGA needs to be reinvented. A lot of people still buy into the dream. Maybe I'm just a cynical asshole for giving up on it.

I found the Chains movie premiere with the backdrop of the USDGC this summer to be a fairly accurate snapshot of where we are. On the one hand you have this very nice looking movie showing disc golf as this sport of the verge of a huge breakout, which is that nice PDGA dreamworld we have been chasing all this time. The backdrop is the reality that Innova just pulled the plug on the USDGC because they gave up on that dream and couldn't justify the cash dump anymore. It hit home to me the reality of how far we really are from where a lot of people believe we are.

It's a tough nut to crack.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby Dag » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:52 am

Point of perspective I've found useful:

The PDGA is roughly the same size as the WCF (that's World Curling Federation, you knew that of course).
Disc golf probably has more casual players and venues but curling is an Olympic sport.
...there was a time when you were taught to find the best disc for you, not the best disc for your situation on the course, which is how they are sold now. IMO, the flight charts are basically there to point out all the stuff you dont have in your bag and why you suck.

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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby veganray » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:24 am

Interesting that the annual dues for USA Curling (which include a membership to the overarching WCF) are a mere $28.00 (including a magazine) with a $21.00 "Social Membership" option, while the PDGA will bash you over the skull yearly for $75.00. And curling is an Olympic sport…
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby biscgolf » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:56 pm

i bet the curling organization has way better member retention than the pDGA.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby JHern » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:26 pm

Working Stiff wrote:...There was the idea that once amateur play developed, there would be that base of players to support the sport and professional disc golf would thrive....With all the courses and all the new players, we still are nowhere close to the numbers advertisers are looking for...that dream of professional disc golf seems even farther way to me than it did 20 years ago...The PDGA sells that dream...Once you become like me and you just don't buy into the dream anymore, it's hard to get behind the PDGA...


This was an honest post, and I appreciate hearing it. Thanks Working Stiff.

For me, it is also personal. I have met almost all of the touring pros and current and former champs, some of them are becoming close friends, and I see their ups and downs right in front of me. I know the quality of the people involved, and if only for this reason, I'm very sympathetic to them and the cause that the PDGA is trying to promote. I see the hopes and dreams and aspirations in their eyes, and I also witness the incredible feats they are able to perform throwing disc. And I connect with that, fundamentally, as a disc golfer. This level of dedication cannot go unnoticed, and I don't think it does go unnoticed here at DGR.

Yet, people are not always discussing the underlying motivations and characters involved, behind the scenes. I think "Chains, the movie" provides a glimpse of that, although it may not connect with everybody. But in any case, that's hard to convey on an internet forum, for damn sure. Folks here at DGR often discuss Avery's throwing, but they don't discuss his personal drive and commitment to the sport, which are more important. The more you tell me that it is an empty dream, the more I envision casting folks like Avery as fatalistic heroes fighting a worthy, but ultimately losing, battle. But I really don't agree that things are that bad, I just think many of us are impatient for growth of the kind that won't be attained for some years. Or maybe it's just me, perhaps I'd rather go down swinging, for a good fight, and a worthy cause, instead of yielding. I don't know. But these folks certainly inspire that kind of response, and I'm still sympathetic to the cause, for better, or worse.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby JR » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:37 pm

Cracking the nut is worth it and all worthy things usually put up a fight. Will DG crack it? Could be that it won't happen, but with the growth rates enjoyed over the last 5-6 years means that if the growth rate stays the same and there will be a larger coverage with courses that at some point it will be lucrative for an outside company to step in. I think that the PDGA has maintained a support system (however limited) for the sport and all the volunteers do most of the heavy lifting of growing the sport. The more the grass roots grows the more money there will be for the best players to compete for. I'm not seeing the chances of the PDGA stepping in and setting up new courses and marketing the sport to local players. They don't have the resources for that, but supporting such activities in limited ways is possible.

I might be wrong in thinking that supporting setting up courses and introducing the course and sport for public in the areas, where existing courses are far away is a good focal point for PDGA activities. Meaning supporting the people who do the work of building the course and go to a corner and yell out come out and play.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: pDGA LOLz

Postby osbogosley » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:48 am

From my point of view the pdga doesn't give a damn about the guys that helped make them what they are. In the late eighties I traveled extensively promoting disc golf. I'm so old now that buying a membership to play in tournaments for senior grand masters is pointless. I asked if I could at least communicate on the pdga forum, what do you think the answer was?
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