Disc Wear / Damage

[Porsche320]

Due to my work schedule, I can;t play as much as I'd like, so I find myself over-thinking things without trying much out on course. Anyway, this week's topic is effects of disc wear and damage. My beginner's bag uses a DX Eagle and DX archangel for distance. Distance is generally 270-290'; I'm working on my throw, especially wrist flexibility. I played almost exclusively with these 2 discs and a putter. I never played all that often, but I drilled these things into trees MANY times. At a glance, I'd say they are broken in, but short of beat. The issue is that they are flying MUCH more understable then they used to (both turn into terrible, unintentional rollers when thrown flat). None of my other discs are really doing this, but they are champion and far less used. Could the tree impacts have damaged the discs, and is this symptomatic? Both discs have fairly large gouges on the edge. Because I like new toys, I'm getting a champion eagle and champion sidewinder to replace the discs, and I intend to use champion/star only to rule disc wear out as a factor in the future.
I guess the ultimate question is, is this a valid conclusion, or am I likely off-base?
The only alternative I come up with is that DX is grippier than champ, and my release is unconsciously later?

[Spinthrift]

You're right. The DX plastic breaks in much quicker than premium plastic. That said, don't get rid of the old DX Teebird as it will be a useful disc in a more well-rounded bag (the Archangel is another matter). Seasoned DX discs like Rocs, Leopards, Aviars, TBs and Eagles are capable of hitting some very desirable lines that new discs can't achieve.

[JR]

Usually the outside edge of the discs bend down in the tree hits and that changes the ratio of air going under and over the disc. Add scrapes gouges etc. and the airflow gets even more disturbed by turbulence drag etc. The net result is that discs do start to turn more and it is ok it's just time to buy a new disc. It may not need to be Star or Champion either. Pro is more durable than DX and generally grippy and flies farther than Star and Champ.

[Blake_T]

the flight change is due to what JR said with the outer edge as well as smoothing off the bottom of the rim (mostly this). surface friction is pretty much negligible.

back in the "olden days" we used to plan for break-in in several ways.

1. going a touch heavier than you want to throw. by the time it's broken in you will have taken several grams off the rim. a disc is new for a week and then "used" forever.
2. going a touch more overstable than you want to throw. see #1. you want it perfect after it's seen 100 course throws. the plastic will dry as it ages and as it dries, the wear slows down. nicking up the surface will speed up the drying process. the flight change you see from throws 1 to 100 is about as drastic as you'll see from throws 101 to 600.
3. carry a rotation. let's say you throw the one disc 12 times a round. if you carry 2 of them and throw them 6 times each, they now last twice as long as they did before. if you carry a third one and throw them 4 ties each, they now last three times as long, etc. usually one will be slightly better suited than others, so a good mix is: newish, broken in, beat. by the time the beat one is a roller, the broken in one is beat and the newish one is broken in. add a new one at this time.

if a newish dx eagle is HSS -1 LSS +3, a champ eagle is like HSS -0.2, LSS +3.8 and a star eagle is like HSS -0.4, LSS +3.6. this is also ignoring the grip difference. you won't get the same flight out of champ as you will a dx.

also, throwing almost all hyzers is more consistent than trying to throw flat, so take that for what it's worth.

[Porsche320]

Thanks for the great replies.
I guess the only question I still have is the difference between a "normal" throw, and one where it hits a tree 50' in front of you. Even my most thrown disc probably has <100 throws, but it is flying like a beat dragon (found, no name) that has 500+ visually.
My concern is I've broken some aspect of my throw, and I have another unknown thing to work on (along with x-step, wrist down, wrist flexibility, stopping the wrist, and throwing consistent hyzer).
Its great to have a resource that has legitimate credentials. Too often forums are primarily a place to keep repeating bad information until it is treated as law.

[Blake_T]

I guess the only question I still have is the difference between a "normal" throw, and one where it hits a tree 50' in front of you.

there's two types of throws where you hit a tree 50' away.
1: the one tree there and you shank the crap out of it.
2: a severely wooded hole.

it's often good to have a more durable disc for #2. #1 is the fault of the thrower.

think about it this way: what did people do before 2002? Z and Champ plastic debuted Nov. 2001 and champ plastic wasn't readily available until like late 2004. certain models are more durable than others in base plastic. e.g. the bead was invented as a way to increase durability.

Too often forums are primarily a place to keep repeating bad information until it is treated as law.

here we pride ourselves in continuously repeating good information until it is blindly treated as law

[JHern]

With respect to DX plastic, I wonder if most manufacturers are giving it much attention/care any longer, since the market has shifted more to premium plastics. The latest DX discs I've thrown were total garbage plastic.

Also, I don't know if this might be an issue as well...I've gone through many stages (a roller coaster ride) over the years where some of my discs will all of a sudden fly more under-stable, and flip over. I usually compensated by throwing more over-stable plastic, which resists flipping over. But then later I would come back to the discs I thought had become too flippy, and they flew very nicely again. In most cases, at least for me, it was apparently the Archer, not the Arrow. And even if a disc had become very beat, when I was throwing under-stable discs well I could also throw these much better, too...these are more finesse-type throws, dependent more upon getting a good clean release without wobble and hitting the right angles.

On DGR we discussed many times practice throwing a disc that is very sensitive to release errors/wobble/OAT, such as a Comet. The benchmark is this: once you can get a Comet out to ~300' without flipping it over, then you have cleaned up your release, and eliminated significant wobble/OAT. This will help greatly when throwing faster discs, and produce more predictable, accurate, and longer throws in all cases. It will also allow you to throw putters much further, which is one of the great pleasures of disc golf.

[Blake_T]

dx plastic still sells quite a bit, as does pro d. most people that buy discs would be considered "rec." now that they are going wider rims, they are having to use a softer plastic in order to meet rigidity requirements. this also makes these very fragile for breaching their structural integrity (aka warping the rim).

one of the bigger differences is that models are now designed for premium plastic whereas older models were designed for base plastic. designed = what they expect shrink rates to be of the plastic as it cools in order to end up in their desired shape.

dx and pro shrink more than champ/z.

discraft has been the most proactive with this change by designing the bottoms on newer models so you don't end up with flashing on the bottom rim.

[CatPredator]

now that they are going wider rims, they are having to use a softer plastic in order to meet rigidity requirements.

Interesting. So I can tell people to blame the DX Boss when they bitch about not being able to find good DX Rocs...

[Porsche320]

I guess the only question I still have is the difference between a "normal" throw, and one where it hits a tree 50' in front of you.

there's two types of throws where you hit a tree 50' away.
1: the one tree there and you shank the crap out of it.
2: a severely wooded hole.

it's often good to have a more durable disc for #2. #1 is the fault of the thrower.

We do have some heavily wooded courses, but I shouldn't use that excuse, I'm a hardcore #1 player.
Has anyone had a bad day, and bounced their DX drivers off trees a few times and had them fly different at the end of the day?
I need to make time to get some video of my throw for guidance. It might prove valuable to the forum as a what-not-to-do.

Thanks again.

[inthedrift]

I guess the only question I still have is the difference between a "normal" throw, and one where it hits a tree 50' in front of you.

there's two types of throws where you hit a tree 50' away.
1: the one tree there and you shank the crap out of it.
2: a severely wooded hole.

it's often good to have a more durable disc for #2. #1 is the fault of the thrower.

We do have some heavily wooded courses, but I shouldn't use that excuse, I'm a hardcore #1 player.
Has anyone had a bad day, and bounced their DX drivers off trees a few times and had them fly different at the end of the day?
I need to make time to get some video of my throw for guidance. It might prove valuable to the forum as a what-not-to-do.

Thanks again.

It is quite possible that your drivers have become more worn than you think. I have several DX Gazelles that are essentially "beat", but still look newish. They don't have any major gouges on the edge of the rim, but they're definitely understable. I also have a couple DX Gazelles that have MAJOR gouges but have seen less use overall and still fly quite stable. I'd suggest buying a new DX Eagle or three and starting a rotation as Blake suggested. And yes, I've had the day that you speak of; I have noticed flight changes in DX discs during the course of one day's play. Tree smacks were definitely involved.

[JR]

It is possible to break in a base plastic disc fast. I did the unholy thing wanting to see how a soft plastic disc breaks in by bringing a new D-Line CD to Meilahti, Helsinki, Finland. Bedrock and glass from broken bottles sometimes cuts Champ too. The course is built around old ski jumping hills so there's a lot of height change to be handled and discs fall a lot on downhill holes or ram the hills head on sometimes going uphill.

The disc changed with every few holes. After the first round it was flipping. Round 2 the change was milder but the disc was pretty banged up and flippier than my back wants to handle. Meaning a lot of initial hyzer requirement. This is an extreme example, because the surroundings eat up soft plastic and i threw the disc more often than is sane to use.