Making Changes

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Making Changes

Postby fanter » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:50 pm

When you find that you need to make adjustments to your form (say, plane preservation, pinch point, delaying your pull, etc.) what do you do to actually incorporate those changes?

I know, in my head, what I need to be doing to achieve snap, because I've done it before. I've felt pivot, felt the pull of the disc against my fingertips, felt the "double whip" effect. I'm at a point where I can feel that I'm not executing things properly, and after every throw I basically know what went wrong (ultimately, that there was little snap/pivot). When I do try to clean things up (slow down, take smaller steps), I find myself consistently reverting to the same body motions/positions, as if they are programmed, or I just shank the throw really badly with no power at all.

Most good days seem like accidents. The times that I've had great snap, everything feels just as automatic as my "regular" throws, and then two days later I can't execute it the same anymore.

General info: I throw Eagles and Valkyries out to 400' with relative ease. I don't throw any wider rims than a "9."
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Re: Making Changes

Postby Star Shark » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:29 pm

Field work. Work slowly and really focus on the bits of form you want to tweak. You want it to both be in your head and in your muscle memory so reps are important.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby JR » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:49 pm

While you need a lot of reps there is also a phenomenon of tiring the nervous system out. Snap needs 100 % effort or more depending on many factors. That means that some days throwing is wasted and when you tire the nervous system even more you'll postpone the day when you're at full performance and the most explosive, when there's more force and thus you can get a stronger physical sensation feedback. From the weight shift and pivot of the disc and the arm direction changes and accelerations/decelerations. For finding feelings you should rest for days at least to be at top level. So no weight lifting. Obviously that does not cut it. Pushing when you know you're not 100 % doesn't help either. On off days you should stop immediately and go rest if you must find out things. Physical training is the time when you need to push. And solidifying your findings made into new form forging it to second nature.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby pdiddy71 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:21 am

I feel similar to what Fanter was saying. When I am playing well, it seems to be in small runs. Good drive, accurate mid or approach throw, and good putt. Lately it has been more bad drives, scrambling to make a possible acceptable mid or approach shot, and longer than it should be putt. I guess I am more of the ass backward way of playing disc golf. my putting is more of my strength, then approaches, and drives is where the adventure begins. I have been playing disc golf since April of 2006. I feel like i ought to be playing at an advanced level but seem stuck in the recreational / low intermediate rut.

I have not really been a long range bomber for drives. I have had limited success with 150 class discs like the r-pro boss, dx destroyer, and dx wraith. When I started playing, I was throwing discs sidearm. After a couple of years, my elbow hurt too much to keep throwing that way, even tried playing through the pain. After watching me struggle during a tournament, a friend taught me the x-step there. I bought a dx roc and worked on getting the coordination down. I believe that was in 2008.

So to make this short, When I go out to a field just to thrown and work on timing/release/footwork, should I only throw the same discs over and over or go through everything I have? I haven't done it this year so far, but in the past I would get just about all of my thrown discs and throw them. Starting with drivers by stability, then mid-ranges, and then putters. I try to go thrown all the throwing motions - overhand, rollers, backhand, some forehand, hyzer, anhyzer, and so on.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby CatPredator » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:00 am

Video can be a great study aid. Take video of yourself throwing hyzers (or any other kind of shot you're having trouble with but hyzers can be really revealing) and then look at how top pros are throwing them and you'll likely see a bunch of problems with your posture that are preventing you from keeping your arm on plane.

It's quite easy to actually see what is going wrong and you can analyze little details in your throw repeatedly and then work on developing what it feels like to correct those issues. And you can keep videos from days when you're throwing well and draw comparisons and see which parts of your technique starts to slip when you get lazy or tired or just aren't feeling it.

The best way to actually improve your coordination is to work out, with a focus on balance, core exercises, and body awareness. Aside from getting bad snap, a lot of people lose power in their core and fuck up their planes by arching their back funny and having poor weight distribution, sloppy axis of rotation, and a bad weight shift.

If you're lying to yourself about your distances, that isn't helping either. Seems if you were throwing Eagles 400' with ease you'd be bombing them 425'+ on distance lines, Valks 430'-440', and perhaps Wraith type discs 450'. Being accurate at those distances will get you wins in all but, and perhaps even including, the top tiers of play.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby fanter » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:54 pm

CatPredator wrote:If you're lying to yourself about your distances, that isn't helping either. Seems if you were throwing Eagles 400' with ease you'd be bombing them 425'+ on distance lines, Valks 430'-440', and perhaps Wraith type discs 450'. Being accurate at those distances will get you wins in all but, and perhaps even including, the top tiers of play.


I averaged my distance between my two primary drivers. I stated a distance for referential purposes, so you'd know that I'm not ~250' of D and complaining that I can't throw anything.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby CatPredator » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:35 pm

I don't mean to bring up the internet distance contest because obviously many people can throw Eagles 400' and would still like to throw them farther and more accurately and you could easily be one of them. It is interesting that it's the only thing you've commented on so far though...

Do you do field work? Have you video taped yourself? Do you work out? Do you play when you're rested?
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Re: Making Changes

Postby jbl » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:56 pm

I'm in the same place as you are. There are a number of fixes I am trying to make to my game. For example, my putting stance hurts my arm after practicing for a while. I'm having to completely revamp my putting style. With drivers, I did sidearm for a while and at this point it just isn't even worth it. Hurts my elbow too much. I'm doing the entirety of my game backhand now but it requires a lot of practice to get to where I was.

Just my 2 cents, but you need a to-do list every time you go out on the field. Pinpoint your weaknesses and work on them. You also need to limit the amount of practice you do. After 40 minutes or so of solid practice (with four different 5 minute breaks - hour total), I realize that my body isn't going to make any more significant strides in the allotted amount of time, so why keep on going? It'll only hurt your body.

What I'm doing for approximately the next couple of months or so is going out to the field and working specific things for specific days. For example, my to-do list would look something like this:

Mon: Driving practice, distance (w/ putters, midranges that won't mask flaws, focus on keeping it straight) - 40 mins.
Putting practice - 15 mins.

Tues: Stand-still driving (again w/ putters and midranges, no footwork, focus on straight shots) - 20 mins.
Hyzer/Anhyzer drills - 20 mins
Putting practice - 15 mins.

Wed: Approach shots w/ hyzer and anhyzer - 20 mins.
Utility shots - 20 mins.
Putting practice - 15 mins.

Thurs: Driving (straight, hyzer, anhyzer) - 30 mins
Utility shots - 10 mins.
Putting practice - 15 mins.

Fri: Go play with buddies.

Saturday: Day of rest.

Sunday: Go play w/ buddies or day of rest.

That's just me. Maybe I'm not as hardcore as most, but you have to realize that strides in this game are made over the course of weeks and months, not days. This also allows me to work throughout the day and not completely exhaust myself, all the while getting my DG fix once or twice a week. In reality I am dedicated a little more than an hour a day, 5 days a week, to this game.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby fanter » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:41 pm

CatPredator wrote:I don't mean to bring up the internet distance contest because obviously many people can throw Eagles 400' and would still like to throw them farther and more accurately and you could easily be one of them. It is interesting that it's the only thing you've commented on so far though...

Do you do field work? Have you video taped yourself? Do you work out? Do you play when you're rested?


Field work: often. Less so now that the spring semester has begun, but still 2hr/week.

Video: Check. Haven't taken one in a couple months. My distances have improved, but I still know I'm not achieving a strong snap/pivot consistently. Most days I'm quit sure that I'm just really "good" at strong-arming. Basically I'm at a point where I can feel a lot of what goes wrong. The real issue is implementing some sort of real, meaningful change into my practice.

Work out: Not consistently. I've done low-rigor strength training off and on (pushups, ab workouts, etc.) the basic "at-home" stuff. I recently started running.

As for your last question, I think JR may have pinned me. I play as much as I can, and I hate taking days off. I don't really consider a throw to be very taxing on my body, and I stretch frequently during rounds to stay loose. In the summer, for instance, I play almost every day. When I return after numerous days off (say, three or four) my body feels like rusty junk. I feel less able to make refinements on a "rested" day than I do on, say, day two of solid golf.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby Pwingles » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:45 pm

We need to crush some field work brah.

As for your post and questions;

Fatigue could be an issue. Either physical, mental or both.

Keeping focus during a round can be hard, sometimes for me I find myself making errors doing things that are normally automatic. When in reality theyre not automatic, they take a small amount of extra concentration that i may not be giving that moment because its easy to forget that extra little mental checklist in your head. The one that when you use it you barely know it but you did it. When you skip over that sometimes small errors occur that get compounded and show exponentially 400 feet and 150 off the fairway later.

Id suggest, when you notice somethings off, take an extra few seconds to compose yourself before your next shot. Not to the point of overthinking it, just to help you remember to not underthink it.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby fanter » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:42 pm

Roc Lover wrote:We need to crush some field work brah.


Agreed. Maybe if you didn't maintain a steady job it we could actually do it. :wink:

Roc Lover wrote: As for your post and questions;

Fatigue could be an issue. Either physical, mental or both.

Keeping focus during a round can be hard, sometimes for me I find myself making errors doing things that are normally automatic. When in reality theyre not automatic, they take a small amount of extra concentration that i may not be giving that moment because its easy to forget that extra little mental checklist in your head. The one that when you use it you barely know it but you did it. When you skip over that sometimes small errors occur that get compounded and show exponentially 400 feet and 150 off the fairway later.

Id suggest, when you notice somethings off, take an extra few seconds to compose yourself before your next shot. Not to the point of overthinking it, just to help you remember to not underthink it.


Fatigue is probably the issue, and some confidence. Often I can tell that I'm not throwing with the kind of precision/control that I'd like and I don't feel able to execute some shots.

I'm sure you've probably noticed that my primary concern is my form rather than my actual performance, which is why I usually laugh at all the shitty shots I make. If I can tell that my form is weak (and I'm beginning to think that I'm strong-arming a whole lot more than I used to think) then I don't get too competitive/serious/focus much on my shots.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby Blake_T » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:51 am

changes are hard. if you are trying to get your body to "do something," developing muscle memory is easiest if you try to isolate what you want to do. This will make this motion natural and hopefully will over-ride the tendencies of your other motions to make them happen correctly.

rep counts:
2,000 reps = proficient.
20,000 reps = mastery.
100,000 reps = complete muscle memory.

changing your throw to put yourself into a position to snap a disc, for most people, involves like 8 changes.
you're best off making snapping a disc the dominant motion and allowing your body to follow suit.
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Re: Making Changes

Postby fanter » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:10 pm

Blake_T wrote:you're best off making snapping a disc the dominant motion and allowing your body to follow suit.


Back to the hammer drills!
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