Releasing The Disc Flat

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby Mike C » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:01 pm

I want to get a discussion going on flat releases.

I remember years ago reading a bunch of posts on here about how you should always look for the hyzer route, how pros always throw hyzers because of consistency etc. I'm not here to disagree with that, I've taken that advice, run with it, and it's helped me with my consistency. Especially since I leanred to FH and can now toss a FH hyzer flick instead of a touch anny BH.

-BUT-

One thing I've noticed is there are a lot of shots that I'm throwing hyzer that I don't need to throw hyzer. I can get the disc out further with a flat release and if my form is clean it just goes straight.

One thing that's been niggling me though is something I've heard repeated a few times about flat releases. I've heard many people whom I consider knowledgeable say that when you throw flat it's almost impossible to keep the nose down. I don't understand this. If someone could elaborate on this I think it would help me out, because when I try to throw flat I'm not noticing difficulty keeping the nose down. The only thing that's ever given me trouble with a flat release is years ago I tended to throw a disc with a bit of anny if I tried to throw flat, but I feel like I've ironed that out for the most part.

Is it going to hurt me in the long run if I start trying to throw more flat release shots? I feel like it should increase accuracy since it takes less power and less guesswork if you know the disc you're throwing can go dead straight. You don't have to account for the fade, because there is none. It also requires less effort to achieve equal distance.
Mike C
Fairway Surgeon
 
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:28 am
Favorite Disc: Soft Ion

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby MrScoopa » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:23 pm

As long as you have wrist down, weight forward, and don't try to throw too high then you should be fine.
T-SWORD, C-ORC, C-FD, S-TL, C-Roadrunner, Z-Buzz, O-Fuse, M-ION
MrScoopa
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 5:51 pm
Favorite Disc: Valkyrie

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby seabas22 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:14 pm

Define flat release.
seabas22
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:52 pm
Favorite Disc: thunderbird

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby Mike C » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:23 pm

seabas22 wrote:Define flat release.


No hyzer or anhyzer but aiming however high or low the line calls for.
Mike C
Fairway Surgeon
 
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:28 am
Favorite Disc: Soft Ion

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby seabas22 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:48 pm

What discs are you releasing flat, high and nose down?
seabas22
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:52 pm
Favorite Disc: thunderbird

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby new013 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:34 pm

I have trouble with flat releases, it's one part of my game i'm working on right now. The two problems I encounter are what you touched on, nose up and slight anny release when trying to throw flat.

I think it came from learning the game with my Mako. To get long straight lines you need some hyzer on it so it kind of got engrained. When I picked up my first Ions I really started noticing it. I had to adjust for more touch shots and think to myself before I threw to get a flat release.

When driving I mostly encounter the anny release when trying to keep a more stable driver flat. For some reason I drive flat with my TLs fine and it's easy for me to keep my nose down but when I pick up something a bit more stable I have to get a few throws in before I'm throwing actually flat. The best way I've found to counteract that so far is to close my eyes and feel how my wrist angle feels when going through a flat motion really slowly. Then I can kind of tab that motion in to my brain and go from there.

If anyone else has any other suggestions I really welcome them.
"F*ck... here comes that guy New013."
new013
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:00 am
Favorite Disc: TL

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby Blake_T » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:32 am

wrist extension is what gets the nose down on flat throws. you can cheat the angles a bit with hyzers and anhyzers so you don't need as much wrist extension to get the nose down on those throws.

a flat release is the least consistent type of shot to try and throw. with many discs they fly one way when flat, and completely different if they are thrown with 1 degree of hyzer or anhyzer.

so... basically you have to throw perfectly or you screw it up.

i expect my throw to have some variance so i have a ~5 degree band is what i'm gunning for (missing 2.5 degrees more or less than my target angle).

if you try to throw a given disc with 20 degrees of hyzer and you end up throwing with 22 degrees of hyzer... the end result might be like 10' shorter and 7' left. if you try to throw with 20 degrees hyzer and you end up throwing 18 degrees... the end result might be like 5' shorter and 5' right. if you try to throw the same disc flat flat and you throw 2 degrees hyzer you may end up 30' short and 20' left. if you try to throw flat and throw 2 degrees anhyzer you may end up 20' long and 30' to the right.

basically, it's just harder to do. you're better off trying to throw with some angle at all times. anhyzer if you like overstable. hyzer if you like understable.
Blake_T
Super Sekret Technique Jedi
 
Posts: 5824
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby JR » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:27 am

The short version: Nose down is stupendously easy hyzered or anhyzered. The steeper the angle the easier it gets to have the nose down at least in some earlier part of the flight than with flat shots. Easiest ways to get annied or hyzered nose down flight or even extreme nose down are rolling the wrist or the shoulder and using the Bonopane grip. Flat shots need many more tricks executed properly with proper timing and there is a minimum muscle power requirement to pull it off. And still may be inaccessible for most for high throws with the front being lower than the rear of the disc.

Flat shots missed penalize easily but getting it right also provides benefits. If you have a point and shoot disc for a laser you just smash it to the middle of the fairway or if you're close enough to the side of the basket that the fade brings the disc to the pin. Throwing s-curves in tunnels creates more error sources for thinking and disc selection plus missing out in power generation will wreak havoc with s-curves. Straight tunnels need to be fairly short if you wanna throw over the obstacles annied or hyzered and there's the issue of winds. The short version: One needs to master flat shots, annies, hyzers, s-curves and preferably rollers and overhands at least to be able to manage all courses in all conditions.

Flat shot front and rear of the disc at the same height for 17' apexes to 400' is not a problem once proper mechanics sans perfect wrist extension. And a full disc pivot. Achieving the same with added apex heights is a more complicated matter. Mike has more power than that so he can throw the disc parallel to the ground to a higher apex point at full power. Throwing higher than his power allows and with the front of the disc lower than the rear of the disc needs a lot of things done right that aren't always necessary for hyzers. So a flat shot is the most demanding shot.

If you hyper spin with the wrist never bending left of neutral and snap to the right of neutral you don't need to account for the wrist bones raising the hand during the wrist snap. Like it would happen snapping from hand to the left of wrist neutral to wrist straight. Using the upper muscles of the forearm can be beneficial for forcing the hand to stay down. The more you lean forward the easier it is to throw nose down. The less you raise the arm from reach back to the rip the easier it is to keep the nose down. The harder you pinch and the more the disc pivots the easier it is to get the nose down.

Sometimes tight s-curves can fit within obstacles and then that is a good cheat for getting the nose down more easily than with a flat shot.

Hyzer flips are good for tight tunnels in calm conditions. In windier conditions you need beefier discs that can be released flat and fly without turning and with low fade while handling a fairly good amount of wind. How come i love the newest Beasts? More HSS than anything as little fading and longer than anything less fading.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11493
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby Tossin' in Memphis » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:21 am

I recall Climo once saying that you should learn to throw flat and straight at first because everything works off of that...I have been incorporating this into my game and the results have not been as inconsistent as what is being said? Technically, isnt the flight characteristic of a given based on its being thrown flat and straight?
"Strange women distributing swords from the bottom of ponds is no basis for a government"
Tossin' in Memphis
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:45 am
Location: Memphis, TN
Favorite Disc: Moving Pictures?

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby turso » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:46 am

Going for the surer hyzer lines is so boring, I always go for a straight shot if it's not completely retarded.
Frank Delicious wrote:Every groove is a unique snowflake of suck.


NOS, PD, River, Roc3, Comet, Trident, Mercy, JOKERi, XXX
turso
Steward Turkeylink: This ranks means I can't read or follow basic directions
User avatar
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:45 pm
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Favorite Disc: FR Roc3

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby Hoey » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:06 pm

JR wrote:The short version...



:lol:



jkjr




great thread, this exact thought/thread has been going around the back of my head for a little while too...



And thanks Blake, I just became a better player by reading this...

Blake_T wrote:if you try to throw a given disc with 20 degrees of hyzer and you end up throwing with 22 degrees of hyzer... the end result might be like 10' shorter and 7' left. if you try to throw with 20 degrees hyzer and you end up throwing 18 degrees... the end result might be like 5' shorter and 5' right. if you try to throw the same disc flat flat and you throw 2 degrees hyzer you may end up 30' short and 20' left. if you try to throw flat and throw 2 degrees anhyzer you may end up 20' long and 30' to the right.

basically, it's just harder to do. you're better off trying to throw with some angle at all times. anhyzer if you like overstable. hyzer if you like understable.



I do prefer the hyzer.
Throw discs, and forget about life for awhile...
Hoey
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1746
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:20 pm
Location: outside the circle
Favorite Disc: fuse

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby seabas22 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:54 pm

seabas22
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:52 pm
Favorite Disc: thunderbird

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby Mark Ellis » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:00 pm

There is a distinction I would offer: THROWING Flat versus RELEASING the disc flat.

My goal is to be able to make any disc in my bag fly flat and straight during the central portion of its flight. So I want the disc to fly flat even if I need to release it somewhat off of flat to get it to do so.

The better I am able to make a disc fly flat the better control I have over the disc.
Mark Ellis
The Big Fundamental
User avatar
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:32 pm
Location: Brighton, Michigan
Favorite Disc: Rattler

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby jubuttib » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:27 pm

Also factor in that just like fade increases the nose angle of the disc, turn decreases it. So throwing a hyzerflip, if you get say 1 degrees of nose down with 20 degrees of hyzer by the time the disc gets to flat it could very well have 2-5 degrees of nose down.
Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.
Anode|ION|JOKERi|MD2|FD|TD|PD|LEGENDa
jubuttib
Long Finnish Word
User avatar
 
Posts: 5447
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:30 pm
Location: Finland
Favorite Disc: Orange FR P-Line MD2

Re: Releasing The Disc Flat

Postby seabas22 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:39 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:There is a distinction I would offer: THROWING Flat versus RELEASING the disc flat.

My goal is to be able to make any disc in my bag fly flat and straight during the central portion of its flight. So I want the disc to fly flat even if I need to release it somewhat off of flat to get it to do so.

The better I am able to make a disc fly flat the better control I have over the disc.

That is a distinction I would make as well. I think there is technically always some degree of hyzer or anhyzer on a release. My favorite shots are throwing fairly neutral discs with slight angle that fly flat straight at the target.
seabas22
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:52 pm
Favorite Disc: thunderbird

Next

Return to Technique

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Grotto and 1 guest