MD2

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Re: MD2

Postby turso » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:58 pm

How durable is a DX roc? I do know that D-MD2 can take a few good hits without much trouble.
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Re: MD2

Postby jubuttib » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:21 pm

kern9787 wrote:
jubuttib wrote:The D doesn't take too long to shake that fade, the P noticeably longer, the domey C's will probably take forever to lose it.
How durable are they compared to dx rocs?
Well Rocs are notoriously durable, and the D-MD2's I've seen haven't been made from a particularly good batch of D, but frankly they still take longer to beat into what I'd really call "understable" than I'd hope.

I got one beat in last season that hit several trees and dented quite heavily, but after just bending it straight it basically hadn't lost any stability (so these take well to turning if you're into that). Two others lost all their fade and developed a very slight turn on throws around 290-320', but I still need to beat them more.

So yeah, considering it's a pretty neutral mold to begin with and that the plastic isn't particularly durable, the new shape does seem to make it fairly sturdy. I've yet to see one turn too flippy, if I get to that point next season I'll report back.
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Re: MD2

Postby jubuttib » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:23 pm

turso wrote:How durable is a DX roc? I do know that D-MD2 can take a few good hits without much trouble.
Rocs are darn durable. =)

Heh, you should have seen my first round with the D-MD2's in Moon Valley, I ripped one straight at telephone poles and trees around 6 times, almost tacoed it. Just bent it back to straight and it was good to go again. That one is my most beat nowadays and still doesn't turn that much.
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Re: MD2

Postby kern9787 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:34 pm

jubuttib wrote:So yeah, considering it's a pretty neutral mold to begin with and that the plastic isn't particularly durable, the new shape does seem to make it fairly sturdy. I've yet to see one turn too flippy, if I get to that point next season I'll report back.


That's what I was hoping for. Best way to describe a roc's durability is it seasons relatively quickly with use, but takes a long time to really get beat.
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Re: MD2

Postby CatPredator » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:55 am

I skimmed the thread but didn't read every post so pardon the dumb question. Unless you're an Innova sponsored player or a European player, why bother with the MD2 over a Buzzz? The "good" flat gummy C-MD2s, which are impossible to find, sound like a CryZtal Buzzz, fast neutral mid in soft premo plastic, while the rest sound like they're all over the place, but mostly too domey and overstable. Where does the appeal come from?
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Re: MD2

Postby Someth1ng » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:27 am

okay so its been awhile since I threw a Crystal Buzzz and I might need to try it again. I only have/had on crystal buzzz to use for my sampling, but I seem to remember it turning over and not being balls a$$ straight when I wanted a straight shot. It certainly could have been my form and I didn't think the Buzzz handled the wind as well as the Flat C-MD2 does. But as I said its been awhile.

If you are saying the crystal buzzz handles 30 mph headwinds and flies like we are describing the flat md2s, then I am definately going to have to break it out again. I wont deny that I was thinking of trying out Buzzzes again for my neutral mid slot.
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Re: MD2

Postby jubuttib » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:30 am

CatPredator wrote:I skimmed the thread but didn't read every post so pardon the dumb question. Unless you're an Innova sponsored player or a European player, why bother with the MD2 over a Buzzz? The "good" flat gummy C-MD2s, which are impossible to find, sound like a CryZtal Buzzz, fast neutral mid in soft premo plastic, while the rest sound like they're all over the place, but mostly too domey and overstable. Where does the appeal come from?
Every Buzzz I've ever thrown has been less HSS and quite often more LSS too (and overall more driver-like when it comes to speed and flight) than the flat C-MD2's (which admittedly are next to impossible to find, here's to hoping they'll pop up in the coming runs), and the MD2 has the added benefit that it can be thrown full power straight into a 30 mph headwind without it noticeably affecting the flight. Buzzz is indeed a straight disc if you hyzerflip it a bit, the MD2 doesn't need the hyzerflip, it's just neutral and goes straight when thrown flat. For me the grip is also better.

I don't have a lot of experience with the Buzzz in baseline plastics but I've heard it said often that beat Buzzzes don't work good as understable mids, whereas beat D-MD2's are just sublime at holding small turns and shallow anhyzers, on low and higher powered shots.

Overall the MD2 is more true neutral than the Buzzz. I do however agree that given the choice between a Z Buzzz and a domey C-MD2 I'd probably go for the Buzzz... I think I need to beat a domey one in properly to see what happens, I have no idea since I barely throw them...
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Re: MD2

Postby new013 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:43 am

I bought a Buzzz, really liked it. Then I bought a CMD2, and sold my Buzzz.
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Re: MD2

Postby CatPredator » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:43 am

jubuttib wrote:it can be thrown full power straight into a 30 mph headwind without it noticeably affecting the flight.


Well that is a bold statement. That certainly is something a Buzzz doesn't do, or any other disc I've ever thrown...

jubuttib wrote:Overall the MD2 is more true neutral than the Buzzz.


These two quotes just don't jive together in my brain. If I ever get a chance to pick up one of these mythical pink gummies or USDGCs I'll have to try it.

As for baseline plastics, I don't think the Buzzz is all that great. I could see the MD2 having a nice edge in this department. All the D Buzzzes I've thrown have been concave/puddle top types and have less glide than you'd want in an understable mid and real dumpy turn. I heard X Buzzzes were ok but all the ones I've felt, which isn't that many, have been really R-Pro-feeling and domey.

Thanks for the info.
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Re: MD2

Postby jubuttib » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:16 am

CatPredator wrote:
jubuttib wrote:it can be thrown full power straight into a 30 mph headwind without it noticeably affecting the flight.


Well that is a bold statement. That certainly is something a Buzzz doesn't do, or any other disc I've ever thrown...

jubuttib wrote:Overall the MD2 is more true neutral than the Buzzz.


These two quotes just don't jive together in my brain. If I ever get a chance to pick up one of these mythical pink gummies or USDGCs I'll have to try it.

As for baseline plastics, I don't think the Buzzz is all that great. I could see the MD2 having a nice edge in this department. All the D Buzzzes I've thrown have been concave/puddle top types and have less glide than you'd want in an understable mid and real dumpy turn. I heard X Buzzzes were ok but all the ones I've felt, which isn't that many, have been really R-Pro-feeling and domey.

Thanks for the info.
It is a bold statement, one that I wouldn't have believed (the old mold MD2's weren't that great in the wind) if I hadn't been the one throwing them. I was on a field trying out some Vectors, the then new Prodiscus Premium MIDARi and brought my C-MD2's as comparison. It had been windy all day, but then it really kicked up. At times it was 30 mph constantly, when it wasn't as bad it was 20 mph constant with gusts up to 30mph (I checked the numbers from a local weather service that's less than a mile away from the field, the actual field is a bit of a wind tunnel so it might have actually been even faster there). I was fully prepared to just see all of the discs flip all over the place (well, apart from the Vector perhaps), but nay, the MD2's just held their lines, constant headwinds or gusty, it didn't matter. Didn't even hurt the distance that much if I kept the nose down, got over 300' on many throws. Tried anhyzers and hyzers and it just held the angle just like when I was throwing flat. The wind naturally caught the bottom when throwing with an angle, but otherwise it didn't affect the flight. After a while I stopped throwing the other discs and just threw the MD2's (also brought P and D-lines, they didn't fare quite as well, but surprisingly good still) up and downwind for a while. Great fun.

I don't see why those quotes couldn't work together. A really truly neutral disc has very very high HSS so that it resists turning over when powered or in a headwind, but it also has very very low LSS so that it doesn't fade hard as it slows down.
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Re: MD2

Postby CatPredator » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:36 am

jubuttib wrote:I don't see why those quotes couldn't work together. A really truly neutral disc has very very high HSS so that it resists turning over when powered or in a headwind, but it also has very very low LSS so that it doesn't fade hard as it slows down.


I understand the concept but most discs are more speed sensitive than that. Discs that fly really neutral at low speeds, say 30-40 mph initial velocity, slowing down to 10-20 mph or w/e before they hit the ground, usually won't stand up to a throw of 50-60mph into a 30 mph headwind and still fly stable and straight during the whole flight. If the MD2 does both, that is pretty awesome.
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Re: MD2

Postby jubuttib » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:49 am

CatPredator wrote:
jubuttib wrote:I don't see why those quotes couldn't work together. A really truly neutral disc has very very high HSS so that it resists turning over when powered or in a headwind, but it also has very very low LSS so that it doesn't fade hard as it slows down.
I understand the concept but most discs are more speed sensitive than that. Discs that fly really neutral at low speeds, say 30-40 mph initial velocity, slowing down to 10-20 mph or w/e before they hit the ground, usually won't stand up to a throw of 50-60mph into a 30 mph headwind and still fly stable and straight during the whole flight. If the MD2 does both, that is pretty awesome.
Disc that just flies neutral at a specific speed and disc that is neutral overall are two different things. With the MD2 they've managed a pretty darn big range of neutral flight. =)

It's not the only one though, the Z Comet flies totally straight for me from a flat release from 30 feet to way over 300 feet on a good rip. Difference is that whereas the C-MD2 doesn't power down quite as well as the Comet the added wind resistance more than makes up for it, especially since the baseline MD2's shine on shorter throws.

So I'll clarify that despite how awesome the flat C-MD2's are, they're not low speed finesse discs á la Comet. If you baby them too much they will fade a bit, which is why for short shots I use the seasoned/beat D-Lines. They will basically stall flat, whereas the C-MD2's will fade when stalling. That said, if you throw it low and nose down right at where you want them to land, meaning you don't let the disc float too much, it'll fly remarkably straight even in the sub 200' range.

One of the keys to why the flat C-MD2's finish so straight is that they hold onto their speed remarkably well (also why they're great in the wind), they don't slow down enough to fade much. In the domey ones it's really obvious that despite identical or at least similar PLH the dome just slows them down so much more that they don't stay in the cruising speed range, and start to fade.
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Re: MD2

Postby CatPredator » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:08 am

Right on. Good info. I'm not too concerned with how my mid/slow fairway hybrid type disc powers down below 200'. I wouldn't expect it to have a Comet/beat Roc-like affinity for height and nose up. Sounds interesting.
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Re: MD2

Postby new013 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:10 am

yeah they aren't that great at lower distances but they are amazing driving mids
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Re: MD2

Postby jubuttib » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:12 am

Well, it's a bit moot anyway since they're so hard to find. Like I said, hopefully they'll run more of them in the future.
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