Drives go anney

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Drives go anney

Postby Itchy » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:30 pm

The last 3 or so weeks, almost every time I throw 100% power, I flip my disc and it anneys to the ground. I definitely have been getting more distance on my throws and I've noticed it on the course. There are a lot of holes I normally play it safe and go around/lay up for a par and yesterday I went for a few of those holes off the tee. Got a lot farther off the tee, just not closer to the basket.

Here's what I've noticed/know
1) Most of these throws are with a 1-1/2 year old, pretty beat star TL that is normally dead straight to the ground
2) A few with are with a newish Z Stalker that normally comes back left
3) With full power my drives are going ~25-100' longer, just anney the whole way there

Been doing a lot of reading and still not 100% sure why.
1) Read about OAT... not sure if I'm doing this, but upshots with putters still go straight with a clean release.
2) Starting the pull through before your right foot plants/poor weight shift... I really don't think this is the case. I'm a noodle-arm and learned to throw with a lot of understable discs, which still make up the bulk of my bag/shot selections. I feel I have pretty good form, unless I've recently developed some bad habits. What increase in bad form can add distance?

So I'm wondering what could cause it and how to fix it. Seems like OAT is the most likely?
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby Star Shark » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:46 pm

Once you can throw a TL over 330', it will turn over for you. You may be torquing it some but this could also just be that you're getting more on it now. Try hyzerflipping that TL and see what happens.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby Mark Ellis » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:26 pm

I view throwing at 100% power a strategical mistake. It is an act of desperation or anger or poor judgment.

In certain sports maximum effort is required (weight lifting, sprinting) but in most sports controlled effort is what succeeds.

Dial back to 90% for your longest drives and throw smooth, balanced, controlled and with a full follow through. Try this and see if it fixes things. If nothing else at least your injury rate should decrease over the long run.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby Pwingles » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:49 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:I view throwing at 100% power a strategical mistake. It is an act of desperation or anger or poor judgment.

In certain sports maximum effort is required (weight lifting, sprinting) but in most sports controlled effort is what succeeds.

Dial back to 90% for your longest drives and throw smooth, balanced, controlled and with a full follow through. Try this and see if it fixes things. If nothing else at least your injury rate should decrease over the long run.


This is right on IMO

I rarely throw full power in a round of golf. I find that what extra distance you may or may not gain from throwing 100% is easily offset but how much a full power throw magnifies any mistake you would make. So unless you throw perfectly all the time which would be impressive, I would suggest taking Marks advice and concentrating more on a smooth throw and placement, the distance will come.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby Itchy » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:13 pm

I may have worded that poorly. I don't go out and try to throw as hard as I can. When I say throw 100% power I mean throwing it as much as I'm confident on a practice field. Everything below that I consider powering down. So my terminology is wrong. 380' is my normal max distance, most holes are around 350-ish so a nice easy throw can get me within putting range. Some holes are around 420-450' with a lump of trees near the basket, so I go around because it's out of my range anyway and going around almost guarantees me a par and I don't have to worry about parking it behind a tree. Those are the holes I started going for.

When I first started playing it'd take 2 full power throws to get anywhere near the basket and I was definitely trying too hard. About 20 holes and my arm would hurt. Now I can play 54 holes in a weekend without my shoulder hurting.

But, I do appreciate that you guys are looking out for my long term disc golf health... I just don't think that I'm currently trying to go beyond my admittedly low skill level.


Star Shark: I normally try to release flat, but I'll try lowering the release angle and see where it gets me.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby CatPredator » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:32 pm

If you haven't learned how to throw pure hyzers by adjusting your spine angle and using your hips and core to control the plane of your shots then you're still missing a pretty important piece of the puzzle. People who throw flat or anhyzer on every shot, which is nearly everyone when they first start out, are much more prone to torquing over stuff than someone who can get their weight behind a hyzer. Learning to throw big hyzers forces you to learn a proper weight shift and better posture or you simply won't be able to get any power on them.

Odds are your posture/balance is a little jacked up and/or you're following through low and torquing discs over a bit.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby garublador » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:31 am

Mark Ellis wrote:I view throwing at 100% power a strategical mistake. It is an act of desperation or anger or poor judgment.
My theory on what happens for most of us is that once you get to 80% or so, you're actually at "full power" and then if you try to throw harder you're at best at 80% but with added OAT. I say best because you're probably sacrificing any wrist extension you may be getting.

As for the OP, it might or might not be OAT. I think the real thing you should try to do it force the disc not to turn over at "full" power. If you can force it to hold the line, let it turn over or force it to turn harder, whether or not you have OAT won't be a problem, it will just be an explanation of how you're getting the disc to act the way you choose.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby JR » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:17 am

Anny adds distance if the disc flexes out and maybe fades too. Add muscle usage and the chances are your wrist or shoulder rotates clockwise. Do all of the drivers flip? Which ones don't? If you turn beefcakes over it is your form that is breaking down. Stiffening the wrist once the elbow starts to straighten may help. If it doesn't and you turn beefcakes it is 100 % certain it is your form.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby Itchy » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:57 pm

JR: My Stalker and TL flip whenever I try to get them past 350. TL is worse than the Stalker, but not by much.


I went and threw the TL with a 7 to 8 0'clock release angle and it went pretty straight. Turned right and went out straight, but right of the line I was aiming on, then faded back left. It wouldn't anney to the ground. So with a pretty big release angle it more or less goes straight, but seems pretty sensitive if you don't get that release angle down there. I also took my Predator it flew a lot straighter released flat, but faded left fairly hard at the end.

Powered down, the TL still flies pretty straight or anney when released flat. I have two new TLs and they were kind of like the Stalker. They'd fight going anney better than my old one.

I'm starting to think my old TL might just be beat to death but any technique advice is still appreciated. I'm also thinking I might need to start dialing back a little during rounds.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby JR » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:20 pm

You should absolutely explore the differences between hucking full tilt vs throwing controlled power alone. Once you know the ins and outs of both ways with each disc on each hole of your home courses you can make an informed decision about how you will mix and match the approaches for any given hole and that scoring difference should influence your bag.

The Stalker in Z and heavy weight can turn or not on a clean throw depending on the individual disc even when new. I'm not surprised about the TL turning and especially when it is beat it should turn. Sounds like you need something more HSS. New Beasts don't turn for me to beyond 400' and they can handle surprisingly much wind for the low amount of fade. Because it is faster and low fading i expect it to fly farther for you than those discs. I think you have enough power to control the Beast on various lines based on the D you're getting. If the Pred ain't very beat it will dump fade short. It is expected.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby A buzzz and a beer » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:59 pm

I would suggest trying a couple things. For one when I notice people turning the disc over too much the are either releasing it too flat or the are not pulling through their body enough.

The other thing I suggest is just throwing a Teebird on the same shot. At some point you need to throw a little more stable stuff. You might be at that point.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby garublador » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:01 am

Itchy wrote:JR: My Stalker and TL flip whenever I try to get them past 350. TL is worse than the Stalker, but not by much.


I went and threw the TL with a 7 to 8 0'clock release angle and it went pretty straight. Turned right and went out straight, but right of the line I was aiming on, then faded back left. It wouldn't anney to the ground. So with a pretty big release angle it more or less goes straight, but seems pretty sensitive if you don't get that release angle down there. I also took my Predator it flew a lot straighter released flat, but faded left fairly hard at the end.

Powered down, the TL still flies pretty straight or anney when released flat. I have two new TLs and they were kind of like the Stalker. They'd fight going anney better than my old one.

I'm starting to think my old TL might just be beat to death but any technique advice is still appreciated. I'm also thinking I might need to start dialing back a little during rounds.
Work on throwing it on pure hyzers just to see if you can do it, but it sounds to me like the disc is flying as advertised. TL's are supposed to turn, especially when they're beat up. I'd recommend shelving it for a while until you beat up another one as a back up. If you want a disc that goes straight get a Teebird.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby Itchy » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:04 pm

I did another round out in a field today. It was pretty windy, so probably not the best test but had pretty much the same results. It seems like my options are to throw a more stable disc flat, or a less stable disc with a non-flat release angle. I really liked the straight flight profile my TL flew with an easy flat release and would like to replicate that. I realize I need to either learn a new disc or a new technique. Which is the better idea?
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby JR » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:53 pm

Yes. You should learn both ways with different disc combinations. You need discs that must be hyzer flipped to flat and ones that won't turn released flat. Then you need to play several rounds preferably throwing both discs on each drive to see which works best on any given hole to be able to make informed decisions about your form strengths and weaknesses and those of the discs. In calm weather and windy weather preferably with multiple wind directions. That is the only way i know of getting a full data set from which to draw reliable conclusions about what works best for you in every kind of condition you will face. Then you can pick your approach to bag building. Can you get by with a minimalist or lean bag across all kinds of courses or do you change the bag according to the wind or carry lots of discs just to be sure. If you opt for the last route you have a higher maintenance level with keeping each disc so familiar that when you do pick it maybe once in every 5 rounds the most rarely disc will do exactly what you intend it to do. The more discs you use the more time it will take to keep it as a no brainer familiar disc that you can pick up the throw without a lot of thinking. The more you need to think the higher the chance of a thinking error. That means losing before throwing. Those mistakes should be rooted out. Nobody is so good that they can give away strokes for free. Especially if they play against the course and themselves.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Drives go anney

Postby snowslydder » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:25 am

when it comes to innova discs how can you tell which ones need to be hyzer flipped and which ones need to be released flat? I use the valkrie, FL, teebird, katana, archon, teedevil.
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