Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

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Do you like seeing elevated baskets?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:00 pm

Yes
16
53%
No
14
47%
 
Total votes : 30

Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby A buzzz and a beer » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:00 pm

So what is everyones opinions on elevated baskets?? Do you like them? Or do you think they are a gimick?

I am seeing more and more elevated baskets all the time. I think almost every tournament I played last year had atleast one if not more per round. I personally do not like them. I think they are a gimick and I think that for a sport to be serious it needs to be uniform. It would be like in basketball if they raised the hoop 1ft on every 5th free throw attempt. I would personally like to see a rule put in place that says that baskets need to be between a certain height to be pdga approved.

Just wondering what other people think about this trend.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Itchy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:34 pm

IMHO, unless it's hole #28 and dangling from a crane I don't get it.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:35 pm

Not sure we would want to nor could afford to bulldoze and level all courses so all baskets were at the same height above grade. Elevated baskets are primarily a way for courses not blessed with naturally sloped terrain to add similar putting challenge. Perhaps you haven't seen the Aug 2011 updated design and installation standard for targets:

"Manufacturers are required to produce targets so the height of the basket rim above the playing surface will be 82 cm +/- 6 cm. However, course developers may install some targets where the height falls outside the 76-88 cm manufacturing range. The PDGA Course Committee suggests that no more than 6 targets out of 18 be installed outside the manufactured height range with just 2 or 3 being preferred. Targets suspended from above can be fun for recreational play but there should be a way to secure it from swinging freely during sanctioned play."
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby rusch_bag » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:11 pm

I don't mind some that are a little higher, but that hole at hornets nest that barry was struggling with for example is really dumb in my opinion. I don't mind if it is on a hill or something, but added pole length is dumb.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby zj1002 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:35 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Not sure we would want to nor could afford to bulldoze and level all courses so all baskets were at the same height above grade. Elevated baskets are primarily a way for courses not blessed with naturally sloped terrain to add similar putting challenge. Perhaps you haven't seen the Aug 2011 updated design and installation standard for targets:

"Manufacturers are required to produce targets so the height of the basket rim above the playing surface will be 82 cm +/- 6 cm. However, course developers may install some targets where the height falls outside the 76-88 cm manufacturing range. The PDGA Course Committee suggests that no more than 6 targets out of 18 be installed outside the manufactured height range with just 2 or 3 being preferred. Targets suspended from above can be fun for recreational play but there should be a way to secure it from swinging freely during sanctioned play."


please pass this on to the folks that run the NCDGC at the Hippodrome. I played it last year and the Hippodrome basically felt like one big gimmick. Every basket was different. A few on a barrel, one lowered in the ground, a few hanging(and waving in the 30mph wind), and others that were elevated on stands or hills(well over half the course had an altered basket). They did a great job with the placement of most OB ropes but when every basket is raised up with OB 30ft behind it and 30mph gusts, pretty much no one went for a putt outside 10-15ft. Amateurs are good enough or confident enough to make/take those putts. I hope they get the message after everyone laid up 90% of the putts last year. Great course when you take away the basket height gimmicks.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Itchy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:45 pm

Mr. Kennedy,

I was thinking more about placements like these:
Image
That field already looks pretty bulldozed to me, why artificially add a stroke by putting your basket in the air?

Or something like this.
Image

I wasn't really thinking that baskets half way up a hill were elevated only because you have to putt up at them. I actually like courses with elevation change.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:51 pm

I suggested several of the "gimmicks" that Pete designed at Hippodrome or he asked me and others if they were legit disc golf challenges. If you go thru the course, they only have a few baskets that do not meet the original spec where the basket has to be between 82cm +/-6cm from grade as measured at four points below the rim of the basket. There's the one on the long pole, the one on the barrels and the one in the ground. I think every other basket meets the original four points height measurement including the ones on the high mound, steps platform and the two hanging including the noose.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:57 pm

@ Itchy - What's the problem with either of the pictured target positions? Both targets are PDGA approved. There's nothing wrong with psyching out the player by not having a nice rounded, grassy mound there. If those basket positions cost you a shot, it would seem your focus and putting skills would be areas for improvement.

BTW - I recognize that this thread is simply about whether players like elevated baskets or not and not about whether they are fair or appropriate. I'm just tossing in the part about fair and appropriate. It's fine that you and many others may not like these odd pin placements. I'm not a fan of flat courses but they can still be well designed and fair.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby zj1002 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:23 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I suggested several of the "gimmicks" that Pete designed at Hippodrome or he asked me and others if they were legit disc golf challenges. If you go thru the course, they only have a few baskets that do not meet the original spec where the basket has to be between 82cm +/-6cm from grade as measured at four points below the rim of the basket. There's the one on the long pole, the one on the barrels and the one in the ground. I think every other basket meets the original four points height measurement including the ones on the high mound, steps platform and the two hanging including the noose.


yeah I see where they still meet the requirements but having almost half the course raised on a platform, barrel or hill gets boring real quick. When it is gusting winds out there you can't really attack the course. Once the wind died the course played much better. The coolest raised one was what was Hole #2 during last years NCDGC. it was a right turning fairway with a mando poll at the turn and OB lining the left and backside of the basket.
Image

once you get around the mando pole, the elevation drops but the basket is raised up on a pole so that if it was level ground the basket would be at the proper height. This creates a mentally harder putt that what it actually is. If you can forget the OB drop off behind the basket it is a routine putt. If you let it get to you, you are pretty much 2-3 putting and probably taking an OB stroke. The hole itself is one of the simpler holes on the course when executed properly but I found that not many folks got a 2 from the long box. The ones that did definitely were able to get separation on the field. It ended up being a major hole given all the risk/reward involved
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Itchy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:28 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:@ Itchy - What's the problem with either of the pictured target positions? Both targets are PDGA approved. There's nothing wrong with psyching out the player by not having a nice rounded, grassy mound there. If those basket positions cost you a shot, it would seem your focus and putting skills would be areas for improvement.

Well, the first one seems lazy IMHO. As if they designed a hole to be a par 3, realized everyone was birdying it and then put the basket up an extra couple feet to artificially add a stroke. That wasn't the terrain they were given and rather than redesign the hole, they "enhanced" their course. I guess I don't see the fun in driving out into an open field, then making a no brainer upshot to park the hole since you can't realistically putt from 35 feet away. I feel a better option would be to plant some trees on the green around that basket and force players to make better upshots. Good upshot = look at a putt and score stays down... bad throw adds a stroke.

The second one isn't so bad, but it still seems like it's more luck than risk vs reward. I guess it depends a lot on which way the tee is. Are you shooting into the hill or down it. If it's down, everyone's just going to lay up and drop in their putt so you're just adding a stroke to everybody. This seems more like a bandaid than anything else, but hey... I'm definitely no course designer.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:36 pm

Statistically, elevated baskets don't play much more difficult than non-elevated, certainly not one shot harder. It's more like 0.1 more difficult. Top pros hardly miss more frequently and typical am players miss 25 footers just as often whether elevated or not. Yes, these baskets are tougher in the wind but still no tougher than flat ground baskets in the same wind.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Frank Delicious » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:40 pm

I don't mind elevated baskets but some are dumb. The one at Hornet's Nest seems dumb to me as it is like 8' in the air next to a cliff. Some courses do it well like Winthrop Gold and Renny has an elevated basket that is used well. An elevated basket on a boring hole is a good way to add challenge. The one Itchy posted earlier in the field is a good example of that. Make the hole a bit more interesting around the basket when nature doesn't allow for it.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Working Stiff » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:22 pm

The elevated basket in the open holes actually seem more boring to me. If they are just there, people will run it. With it up in the air like that, everybody just lays up. Bad holes are bad holes, and a gimmick pin placement doesn't change that.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Mark Ellis » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:15 pm

The overall design of a hole (with or without artificially created challenges) is what makes a hole good or bad or marginal. An elevated basket does not assure or prevent hole quality in and of itself.

This discussion is similar to the Artificial OB question.

In a rich sport like ball golf if an additional challenge is desired they just bring out the earth moving machinery. If ball golf wants ponds, they dig them. If they need a hill or a peninsula or a cliff or a creek or an island they make it. If the land starts flat and ball golf courses want rolling hills and valleys all it takes is money and effort. Then they spend another fortune on finishing landscaping, flowers, clubhouses and parking lots which only allow valet parking.

Disc golf tries to make challenges on the cheap because spending millions on course development is out of reach. But the quality of the challenge has nothing to do with the money spent on it. A basket next to an OB line creates the same challenge whether the OB is a yellow rope or a sidewalk or prime ocean frontage at an exclusive resort. Oh, and having a beer following the round tastes just as good out of the cooler in my car trunk as it does in the country club bar and I don't need to have a member's account.

In similar fashion disc golf costs little compared to ball golf. Irrespective of the price tag or the prestige I vastly prefer disc golf as a sport.

So players are upset with an elevated basket?? If the same basket sat on top of a beautifully manicured but totally manufactured bunker and presented the exact same risk and reward, would anyone complain?

The problem is not that the basket is too high or low or swings in the wind. The problem is the basket itself is a poorly designed device which arbitrarily rejects good putts.
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Re: Elevated baskets. Like or dislike?

Postby Star Shark » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:26 pm

I don't mind it so long as it's not just an extended pole. If it's on top of a pedestal or pyramid or something, great. Also, I don't think it should be anymore than 2 maybe 3 per 18 holes.
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