Casual water

[rhatton2]

Hi,

On the course I play on there are a number of small streams that run across it, most of which are designated casual water.

I have two questions that both came up in a friendly round I was playing the other day.

1. My disc landed in a crook of the stream, going in a line straight back from the basket the nearest dry land was over 3 foot away. My understanding was you could only go back a foot(30 cms) from where the disc lay in the casual water. Do you keep going until you hit dry land in this instance or do you get your feet wet?

2. My friends disc landed in the same stream which was running quite fast. This was on a bend of the stream which turned towards the basket. The water had flooded a bit and was about a foot and a half deep, when they went to pick the disc out of the water the movement of their hand into the water dislodged the disc (it could have just moved of its own accord as he hadn't touched the disc) and it washed downstream taking it 10 foot closer to the basket. He played his shot from where we had first tried to recover the disc, without a penalty stroke (this was a friendly round but I wonder what the rule would be in competition) . Was this correct or should the new lie have been taken?

[black udder]

Hi,

On the course I play on there are a number of small streams that run across it, most of which are designated casual water.

I have two questions that both came up in a friendly round I was playing the other day.

1. My disc landed in a crook of the stream, going in a line straight back from the basket the nearest dry land was over 3 foot away. My understanding was you could only go back a foot(30 cms) from where the disc lay in the casual water. Do you keep going until you hit dry land in this instance or do you get your feet wet?

2. My friends disc landed in the same stream which was running quite fast. This was on a bend of the stream which turned towards the basket. The water had flooded a bit and was about a foot and a half deep, when they went to pick the disc out of the water the movement of their hand into the water dislodged the disc (it could have just moved of its own accord as he hadn't touched the disc) and it washed downstream taking it 10 foot closer to the basket. He played his shot from where we had first seen and tried to recover the disc without a penalty (this was a friendly round but I wonder what the rule would be in competition) . Was this correct or should the new lie have been taken?

1. I've asked the same question and been told that when it's casual water, you can go back as far as you like. Just not forward or to the sides.

2. I would imagine play the original lie. Once the disc comes to rest, that's the spot. I mean, if it rested on a stick and you stepped on the stick and it shot it into the air, it landed on edge and rolled 10' closer to the basket, do you take the new lie "because nobody touched it"? I think you're correct

For #1 - if the water was OB, then you have different rules.

I'm not positive, but I think an unplayable lie will give you a disc width without penalty, but further back is a penalty. If, for instance, you disc comes to rest on a spot that could be considered dangerous for you to stand, you could move it back a disc width to safety, but further back is a penalty.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Both of these situations are specifically covered in the rulebook:

1. My disc landed in a crook of the stream, going in a line straight back from the basket the nearest dry land was over 3 foot away. My understanding was you could only go back a foot(30 cms) from where the disc lay in the casual water. Do you keep going until you hit dry land in this instance or do you get your feet wet?

You get up to 5 meters free relief on the line of play back from the basket. If you need more relief to get out of the water, you have to use the Unplayable rule with a one throw penalty or get your feet weet.

2. My friends disc landed in the same stream which was running quite fast. This was on a bend of the stream which turned towards the basket. The water had flooded a bit and was about a foot and a half deep, when they went to pick the disc out of the water the movement of their hand into the water dislodged the disc (it could have just moved of its own accord as he hadn't touched the disc) and it washed downstream taking it 10 foot closer to the basket. He played his shot from where we had first tried to recover the disc, without a penalty stroke (this was a friendly round but I wonder what the rule would be in competition) . Was this correct or should the new lie have been taken?

Your disc is at rest once it stops on its own momentum even if it is carried down the stream after that point. Playing from the original lie was correct.

[curt]

One part of the casual relief rule that seems to get looked over frequently is that you only get to go to the first point where you are free of the obstacle. So, in your stream example, (let's assume it is one meter wide and that you're at the far edge of it), you can not take the disc back 4.5 meters, but only up to about 1.5 meters (I interpret the rule to say you should be able to have enough relief to allow for your typical follow through).

(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the
obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is
no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original
lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is
announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in
accordance with 803.06.

[black udder]

Both of these situations are specifically covered in the rulebook:

1. My disc landed in a crook of the stream, going in a line straight back from the basket the nearest dry land was over 3 foot away. My understanding was you could only go back a foot(30 cms) from where the disc lay in the casual water. Do you keep going until you hit dry land in this instance or do you get your feet wet?

You get up to 5 meters free relief on the line of play back from the basket. If you need more relief to get out of the water, you have to use the Unplayable rule with a one throw penalty or get your feet weet.

2. My friends disc landed in the same stream which was running quite fast. This was on a bend of the stream which turned towards the basket. The water had flooded a bit and was about a foot and a half deep, when they went to pick the disc out of the water the movement of their hand into the water dislodged the disc (it could have just moved of its own accord as he hadn't touched the disc) and it washed downstream taking it 10 foot closer to the basket. He played his shot from where we had first tried to recover the disc, without a penalty stroke (this was a friendly round but I wonder what the rule would be in competition) . Was this correct or should the new lie have been taken?

Your disc is at rest once it stops on its own momentum even if it is carried down the stream after that point. Playing from the original lie was correct.

Thanks for the exact rule, Chuck.

Hey - what about a lie that would be dangerous (or could be) to stand on? Is there any relief w/out penalty?

Now that I think about it - don't you get a disc width backwards for any shot?

We have a couple courses with casual water so we run across this situation regularly enough that I should know the rule, but I typically let others decide.

[Chuck Kennedy]

No relief without penalty for "dangerous" areas unless designated by the TD and it doesn't qualify for relief under the casual rules (like poison ivy for some people). The TD can also allow more than 5m of casual relief if needed. That should be done when there's casual water that runs parallel to the fairway or aims at the basket over part of its route. Sometimes you might have to go back 30 to 40 feet on the line of play to get out of the water.

[Billym]

Hi,

On the course I play on there are a number of small streams that run across it, most of which are designated casual water.

I have two questions that both came up in a friendly round I was playing the other day.

1. My disc landed in a crook of the stream, going in a line straight back from the basket the nearest dry land was over 3 foot away. My understanding was you could only go back a foot(30 cms) from where the disc lay in the casual water. Do you keep going until you hit dry land in this instance or do you get your feet wet?

2. My friends disc landed in the same stream which was running quite fast. This was on a bend of the stream which turned towards the basket. The water had flooded a bit and was about a foot and a half deep, when they went to pick the disc out of the water the movement of their hand into the water dislodged the disc (it could have just moved of its own accord as he hadn't touched the disc) and it washed downstream taking it 10 foot closer to the basket. He played his shot from where we had first tried to recover the disc, without a penalty stroke (this was a friendly round but I wonder what the rule would be in competition) . Was this correct or should the new lie have been taken?

What course is this?
Why would a course designer not utilize such natural OB's?
My home course, Aquatic Park Berkeley, has a series of creeks that cross the fairway several of which are exactly where either a long or short drive depending on the hole may offer you a "Berkeley Birdie". That means you take the P and out out for 3. I know it is harsh but it makes the course more challenging and the creeks are already there anyway.


Question #2 suggests the creek should be OB that way if it is flowing you take you lie where you went OB so if you saw where it was and then it moves down stream you can still take your lie in bounds at the original landing spot.

[rhatton2]

The course is Quarry Park in the UK.

The streams are little more than drainage ditches (most were dug by the owner) as the hole is very marshy, they criss cross the whole fairway and wouldn't really add a skill element if they were made into OB's. They are so small you wouldn't actively try to avoid them it would just be very unlucky to go in, most are only full when there has been very heavy rain so you would constantly be getting the "can the ant walk to it argument of whether or not its OB, and there are enough other obstacles on this hole to look out for already, it can be seen on my mess around video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGHEFJaPlVI its the fifth hole (the one that flashes up drive of the day, the videos always better watched with the sound on!)

and yes that is a shameless plug to get the Youtube viewing ratings up

Thanks for the answers though, it mainly seems to be common sense!

[thedudeabides]

There was a guy in my group this weekend in a sanctioned event that wanted to dig a rock from the bank and put behind his disc in some casual water so as not get his feet wet or move it back about ten feet to dry land. I said to either stand in the water or move back to dry land as moving large rocks would be altering the course. Now had a rock been already in the stream and in the line of play, take the stance, but I was against essentially building up a spot to stand in the stream. Any thoughts on this?

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

^definitely not allowed to create a lie.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I think QA3 (which is now official as of Jan 1) "Building a Lie" covers your question:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Aut ... 2_2011.pdf

[nohr]

Can I throw a stick down in mud to stand on? Or can I move straw used for a walking path over the mud near my disc behind my disc?

I have done both of these in major tournaments.

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

No, and no. but if nobody says anything then it doesnt really matter. except that you cheated. cheater.

[nohr]

To stop being a cheater I will continue doing everything I am doing but instead of sticks I will use a towel and kneel.

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

or......you could just follow the rulebook. thats prob the easiest way to be sure you are not cheating.