Breaking 360-380 plateau consistently

[archimedesjs]

I believe I am stuck at this plateau. I have a few throws here and there that go about 40-50' past that, but it's not a controllable thing for me, and I never realise what it is I did to obtain it when I do. I recall reading in the incomplete secret technique thread about the flip-back maneuver helping a few guys break through to the next level. When I throw, I keep my thumb forward, use a power grip with all four fingers under the rim, and have my grip loose until the pivot. As the pivot happens, I pull into my hand with my four fingers as hard as I can, and try to pivot the disc along with my wrist as i open up. I'm still getting some microslips, but it's going straight and accurate. I'm not getting a pinch between my thumb and my index finger, but the disc IS ripping off of my index finger. I have a blister to prove it, lol. My question is this. Should I be doing something different during the pivot? Should I NOT accelerate through the pivot, just at the end? I'm going to be getting out again this Tuesday, and I would like to maybe take a few suggestions with me when I go to add direction to my field practice. I feel I'm close to figuring it out, but I'm just not quite there, hence the post. Any and all suggestions are appreciated

[seabas22]

I just had a grip revelation yesterday after watching the DGM where Feldy talks about which thumb muscle the pressure comes from. I can tell you your grip is jacked up. You should pinch thumb and index during pivot, not all fingers into palm. It will feel more like a sling or pop off than a rip when done right. Blister is from bad slip and rip.

[CPJackson]

The Feldberg video is helpful. I'd say that there's some amount of wiggle room because everyone is different.

Getting past this plateau consistently is something that few people do. In fact, it may become the 370-400 plateau due to all the new discs constantly coming out -- but without relaxing PDGA approval standards, that will hit a wall as well.

For the thrower, this is an opportunity to spend some serious time focusing on the different stages of the throw. Check out the article "Distance Drilling" as well as the "Secret techniques" thread on which you've already mentioned. At this stage, I find the gains are small and the effort to make those gains is considerable.

[archimedesjs]

Ok, well then here is a grip question. After the disc pivots, should the disc hit the webbing between my index finger, and thumb during the wrist extension, or not? During the flip-back drill, the disc definitely hits the webbing in my finger. Same as with the yo-yo drill. Both of these were drills that Blake really pushed for me to work on during my phone conversation with him. I grasp the concept of that snap feeling in drills, but it's hard to incorporate into my throws. I get substantial amounts of arm speed, and power, but snap is obviously what is missing from my throws. I can throw aviars/wizards 300'+, mids around 330-350', and drivers 360'-380'(excluding the faster plastics i.e.nukes, destroyers, etc. which I can get out an extra 20'-30'). I'm utilizing my body in my throw, so snap is obviously the missing element. What is the feeling of the disc throughout the last portion of the throw? When should I grip down hard?

[seabas22]

Webbing...no. You want it to come off something solid(palm ejection). Should come off more toward the big index knuckle/palm. Sounds like the disc is too high in your hand, and your thumb is not on top enough. My top two knuckle joints on the index finger wrap around the wing with the finger pad against the inner wall, so the index locks into the rim.

Feeling of the disc is heavy momentum being thrown through the target apex like throwing a hammer. I'd word it pinch down(thumb/index) hard rather than grip down(all fingers). I think I pinch toward the end of the power zone as the elbow chops and lower arm extends. It's hard to explain it. I'd say experiment with the pinch timing anywhere in the power zone out.

[kevind]

Id say this is where most people get stuck and just give up or try to work on other parts of the game. Its frustrating ive been stuck here for what seems like for ever. The one thing that makes me calm down is that of the 75 or so random people that play in the local league there is maybe one or two that can throw a 450 golf shot on command. 95% of the others top out at 350/375. I work on it still from time to time but the obsession is defiantly over especially now that Im going to be playing masters next year.

[Triflusal]

Feeling of the disc is heavy momentum being thrown through the target apex like throwing a hammer. I'd word it pinch down(thumb/index) hard rather than grip down(all fingers). I think I pinch toward the end of the power zone as the elbow chops and lower arm extends. It's hard to explain it. I'd say experiment with the pinch timing anywhere in the power zone out.

QFT. as I'm getting back into playing more because its getting warmer, the first thing that left my throw was pinching down like a mo fo at the end. It's difficult for me to think of what part i'm actually trying to pinch down though.

[archimedesjs]

Alright, I've adjusted my grip, and I'm getting some throws with air displacement, and some with finger pops. I've dramatically slowed everything down because I noticed I was strong arming a bit on shots that I was really trying to throw far. I also have a question about the release now. I was in a position for a long upshot where if I followed through, I would hit a tree with my hand. I still had to go about 300', so I had to put something on it. I used my body to throw the disc like on my drives with a relaxed arm, but I stopped short on my follow through, although I still allowed my wrist to extend. The disc came out like a rocket, and overshot the basket by about 30', at which point it started to turn when it doesn't ordinarily turn. I didn't get a chance to experiment with this further, so I'm curious if this is something that I should actively be trying to do in my drive. Instead of following through the wrist extension with my arm, should i allow the disc to fully pivot, and release with my wrist extending, THEN follow through with my arm? Because if that is the case, then I've been throwing wrong this entire time. I'm going to try it out tomorrow when I hit the fields, but I was curious about some feedback on this. Is this what Brad was talking about when he says "steely stop"?

[JHern]

...I used my body to throw the disc like on my drives with a relaxed arm, but I stopped short on my follow through, although I still allowed my wrist to extend. The disc came out like a rocket...nstead of following through the wrist extension with my arm, should i allow the disc to fully pivot, and release with my wrist extending, THEN follow through with my arm?...

This is often how I throw, especially mid-range and fairway drivers.

Basically, what you're doing is transferring the forward momentum of the disc into more spin than speed. It's a great way to get controlled flights and make your discs fly more stable than usual. But you aren't generating max power, because you're actually pulling backwards on the disc just at the last moment, which is robbing the disc of its potential speed. What you'll also notice is that if you throw this way during an entire round, you'll begin to get sore in your right pec area (for RHBH). That's because those muscles are performing the work of suddenly stopping your arm.

On the other hand, you are beginning to experience the whip-like feeling of a better throw. And so you've reached an important stepping stone. I think this is a good thing, and you should celebrate, and experiment a bit more with the feeling. Also, this is a great throwing style for some kinds of shots, so it's good to practice it.

Still, to get max distance you need to learn how to slap forward through the whip, giving the disc both spin AND speed, and when you do this right your arm and your entire torso will be forced to follow through. You'll find your arm quickly swings all the way around behind your back, there is no way to stop it. People viewing you from the side at the moment of maximum follow through will think your arm is gone, torn off your shoulder and flung into the shule some place.

[JR]

You should try to stop the wrist abruptly and still get a full follow through. Not following through far=not having accelerated as long as possible=lost power. The momentum of the steps will rotate you with the legs and when you walk the follow through step your upper body will follow. Similarly the hips should twist to the right of neutral and the shoulder should turn and the arm should move from the shoulder socket to the right. It is not mandatory to pull back on the disc in the end although it will add spin if your grip is powerful enough. Done right the disc will accelerate when you slow down. Weird huh? Acceleration comes from force to mass ratio. The less the mass of the moving parts per equal force the higher the spin and the speed of the disc. That is the beauty of the disc pivot. In a perfect world the only thing moving during the disc pivot would weigh 175 grams tops with usual discs. If all the momentum created up to that point could be directed to the disc only and you'd stay stationary the disc would make an instant world distance record. Reality is way different because nobody can stop that fast. So a follow through motion is needed to get the best real world results. You should try to get the arm point to around 11.30-11.45 for the optimal results i've heard and then try to stop the wrist. Pointing almost at the target. The disc pivot and the previous motions should then fling the disc directly at the target. And the other body parts will complete the follow through automatically.

[archimedesjs]

I've adjusted my grip based upon the flipback drill. I did the flipback drill until I could really feel the pivot, then the hammer pound with a 2 finger grip, then I just added my other fingers on. That's allowed me to really feel the hit, got rid of the slips, and has given me an extra 20'-40'. I'm now throwing teebirds and leopards out to 400', and the faster drivers(destroyer, nuke, OLF) about 20-30' farther. I can throw the Legacy Cannon even farther, but that's kind of a cheater disc, and don't base my distance off of it. The issue I'm noticing now is my acceleration point. I FINALLY got a HD camcorder, and have recorded a round, and some drives. I noticed 2 negative things, and 2 positive. First negative thing is that I'm not getting a good pivot on my plant foot, which explains why my ankle, shin, and knee ache after a substantial amount of throwing. I also noticed that I'm accelerating way earlier than I thought I was. I'm starting at the left pec position. I can see my forearm tense up, and my face contort which means I'm exerting effort, which most likely means I'm accelerating. The positive thing is that I'm releasing the disc at about 2-3 o'clock, and that I'm getting a good pivot. I noticed on my putter throws that I do NOT accelerate until I get to the right pec position, and the throws look, and feel effortless, yet get a good amount of distance on them (max about 310-320'). What is the best way to force myself to slow down my pull for drivers/mids? I've been doing so many repetitions throwing the way I do, that it's going to be a hard habit to break. Would the right pec drill be the correct exercise to work on?

[archimedesjs]

Here is a video of me playing a round at a local course. I know this isn't the video critique section of the forum, but I pretty much already have my questions in this thread. Maybe the video will aid in getting some questions answered, or at least give you guys something to work with for suggestions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaRxtDkJJJo

[JR]

It is not the only way to throw far to accelerate from the right pec or later. Some maintain acceleration from earlier starting points. They seem to be very muscular throwers. You should check out different starting positions for the arm pull to see which flies farthest for you. Right pec drill is the best way to train for late acceleration. Accelerating late ain't the real goal. Accelerating to create force is.

I don't know if you were going for approach shots or full power in the first few minutes. Dog tired didn't watch more. Your plant foot points too little away from the target for max golf D. The heel can point at the target.

[seabas22]

Agreed with JR. Beware your footwork, that's how I fractured my tibia. Going from the x-step to the plant your hips open and stomp the plant foot so you are shifting your weight from in front of you. You want to close the hips going from the x-step to the plant and land more backwards and closed landing toe to heel so your weight transfers from behind you. So you pivot back going down to the plant and your plant foot will glide forward instead of stomping. Being able to pivot back will require you to raise up a little higher on the x-step.

Check out this thread for more detailed info and vids:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=24009

[Smigles]

Beware your footwork. Going from the x-step to the plant your hips open and stomp the plant foot so you are shifting your weight from in front of you. You want to close the hips going from the x-step to the plant and land more backwards and closed landing toe to heel so your weight transfers from behind you. 9

From your vid where you play the course I can see that you turn on your toes. Should be a toe to heel to toe tranfer.