Another case of poorly defined OB

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Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby warobert » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:36 pm

So a friend is playing in an unnamed tournament with very experienced tournament directors and officiating staff. He is playing down hole 17 which has a fairway with borders with hole #9. There is a double mando to be made on the hole.

The player made the double mando but his shot was thrown low so it cut and rolled into a flower bed on hole 9's fairway. The border of the flower bed is well marked with stakes. The issue is that the caddy book for hole 17 says "double mando, if missed Re Tee. Sidewalk and over is OB." Hole 9's entry has the flower bed designated as OB. The caddy book does not have a generic all staked/flagged/painted areas are OB catch all. An official ruled that the player was OB because since it was OB on 9, it was OB no matter what hole you were throwing. The player appealed and recieved a similar ruling from the TD. In the player's opinion, the fact that the TD meant for the flower bed to be OB on all holes didn't matter, because the TD was sloppy in putting together the caddy book and therefore created loopholes. The TD defends that since the area was clearly marked that it doesn't matter what the caddy book does or does not say.

So DGR, Sloppy TD? Rules lawyering player? both?

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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby Ironhide » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:35 pm

Partially TD fault, partially player fault. I'd assume if it's OB, it's OB regardless where I'm at on the course, and If I'm unsure, I would just ask. But I would have be 'correct' for the TD to label all OB's per hole or something to make it 'dummy proof'.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:14 am

I guess I don't understand the logic of assuming the OB is only OB for a specific hole. I can see maybe if there was a stream running between two holes that was make stream and over for one of the holes it would have to specificall list something for the other hole. But if a parking lot, flower bed or pond is listed as OB it's just OB.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby biscgolf » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:05 am

as a td on a course with an assload of OB i'd rule it safe. i've made similar mistakes in my printed materials for events and had to do so. if OB is listed hole by hole and that particular spot is not listed for that particular hole then it shouldn't be considered OB for that hole unless there is a blanket statement as warobert says.

of course it was intended to be OB but the td screwed up when printing the caddy book thus loophole- benefit of doubt should go to the player.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby Frank Delicious » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:57 pm

Since that flowerbed is OB to prevent people from playing from it and messing it all up I can understand the TD ruling it OB but I think that was the wrong call since it wasn't specified on the rulebook as OB for all holes.

p.s. that holes is like the perfect comet hole.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby Spinthrift » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:14 pm

It seems standard that all marked OB remains OB unless the rules state it's not in play for specific holes or situations. The hole here is Sugaw Creek #17. The flower bed defines the right edge of #9's fairway.

Let's say his throw, instead of stopping in the flower bed, continued on 20 feet further into Sugaw Creek Road. Would you be arguing it didn't count as a penalty because the road was not indicated as OB on the rules for #17??? I think not.

Let's say the guy tries a 360-degree throw from #17''s tee and manages to sling it backwards into the road adjacent to #10 fairway. OB? Wait! On #17's rule sheet it doesn't say #10's road is OB, so it must be good, right?

The point that's lost is the dude's shot deserved a penalty. It landed on the other side of the 9th hole and the rules for that hole are not suspended because he threw a crappy shot and couldn't keep it in his own fairway.
Last edited by Spinthrift on Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby Apothecary » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:26 pm

spinthrift youre reaching.

the whole idea of having a caddy book is so someone who may be throwing the course for the first time knows the specifics of whats in and whats out. its the bible for the tourney. if ob wasnt listed as ob FOR THAT HOLE the call should have gone to the guy with the crappy shot in the clearly demarcated ob that you had most likely already played by so were likely aware of. :P
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby Spinthrift » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:32 pm

Apothecary wrote:spinthrift youre reaching.

Yeah, maybe, and I'm not denying it could have been clearer, especially for the nit-pickers. I just fail to see any degree of logic in the position that clearly staked and marked OB would be considered not in play, no matter where the (wayward) shot originated.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby TOURNEYPLAYER » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:38 pm

it should have been listed as OB period. if it were a road, or a creek, or a lake, in the caddy book it would say "all roads,creeks,lakes,etc. are OB." if the Flower bed is not on that list then the player should not have been penalized.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby JHern » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:19 pm

I've never heard of a caddy book being used as a strict source for course guidelines, per se. Caddy books are supplementary information provided by the club for the benefit of the players.

Anyways, if you cut roll as badly as this shot, and only a flower bed stops your disc from going into the road, then you can't really complain so much about a OB call, imvho.

TOURNEYPLAYER wrote:it should have been listed as OB period. if it were a road, or a creek, or a lake, in the caddy book it would say "all roads,creeks,lakes,etc. are OB."...


This is what I do for tournaments. It keeps things simple. I use blanket statements like "inner edge of road (pavement) and beyond is OB" and that takes care of much of the OB on the course.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:32 pm

Still don't get why you say that OB listed on a hole is only OB for that hole. Why isn't it ok to list the OB's on the hole where they occur to make it obvious which flower bed you're talking about. For example the parking lot on hole 9 is OB because people actually park there but the parking lot on 15 is not. I suppose it depends on how it's phrased but I don't think that the mere fact that OB is listed on a specific hole implies that it's only OB for that hole. I think the circumstances where a TD would identify an OB area as only OB for a specific hole to be the exception not the rule.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby warobert » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:47 pm

To be fair, the TD could have solved this problem by including an "all staked areas are OB." But he didn't and I didn't feel the player should be penalized for the mistake of the TD.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby veganray » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:41 am

warobert wrote:But he didn't and I didn't feel the player should be penalized for the mistake of the TD.

If the player had intentionally thrown into that area, then the argument that he was being punished for the TD's oversight might hold water. But a shitty throw that lands OB in an area that could've been better marked doesn't qualify a weaselly player to make such an argument. Easiest of easy solutions in that case: play two provisionals to their fruition from the contested spot & let the TD make the call as to whether the original throw was OB or not.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby warobert » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:01 pm

Provisionals were the way they played it out Ray, and then the course td and the head td ruled the area in question out of bounds.
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Re: Another case of poorly defined OB

Postby veganray » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:08 pm

So the players did the right thing & the TD ruled. Done & done.

The player is creating the "problem" by having accidentally thrown such a howler of a shot into an OB area, then frantically searching for a shred of a pitiful justification to avoid the proper penalty. I'm as "strict constructionist" as it gets, but the TD got this one right.
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