RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

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RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:58 pm

Hi all,

I've been lurking on this forum for quite a while now, but have been hesitant to jump in the conversation. I've learned a ton reading the likes of Blake_T,Timko and Masterbeato just to name a few.

Anyhow, I decided it's been long enough and I'll throw myself in head on. I'm really struggling with getting good snap (as about everyone is I assume), but even more so with major nose-up issues on any flat RHBH drives. My approaches and go-for shots don't have that problem. My drives consistently fly high and right with hard hyzer angles before biting hard left (again, RHBH throw) of my target line.

Here are a few samples:

Downhill shot -- De La Veaga, RHBH, Leopard 155g

My reach back is really messed up, and my arm takes a really funky forward line -- starts high and finishes low.

Downhill shot -- Hellyer Park, RHBH, Avenger SS, 166G

Trying to use closed-shoulder drill to keep my shoulder from flying out. One of my better shots on this day. Disc was flat on release, I think, and I was trying to drop it below some trees in the distance

Flat shot, big nose-up and air bounce

Form starting to get worse....

Flat shot, big nose-up/air bounce/Disc-in-tree



I used to play disc golf quite a bit when I was younger, then got away from the sport for many years. Back then I was primarily a rhfh thrower with zero control. I've been playing consistently (3x week, 2hrs at a time) for a casual amateur for the past couple of months. My hard hyzers on drives are my biggest issue. I've hit a good snap a couple times in the past, and really felt it, and on those couple of throws I maxed my distance out somewhere around 300lb.

Anyway...any help you can provide will be much appreciated. I've read a lot here about exposing the flight plate, and I think that's the big issue in the last two videos. My thumb is positioned right on the rim of the disc on all my drives, right above where my index finger creates the lock. Maybe I'm not pressing evenly or something? Thanks for the help in advance.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby seabas22 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:38 pm

The pull line is 3 dimensional, and you want to keep the disc in a straight line from max reach back to hit through the apex of the line. What you are doing now to cause nose up is starting your reach back very high, then swooping the arm/disc down to go back up. Start your reach back lower than your shoulder around nips or even waist and pull through in a straight line up to the flight apex. This will help keep the disc from changing planes on an upward trajectory. On a flat shot there should be no up/down movement of the disc from reach back to hit, and keep it straight close to the body through. Also you are too open with your body and not getting much elbow chop, where the elbow goes forward of the shoulder before breaking. Keep working the closed shoulder drill. Your high reach back on that drill shot actually helped your downward trajectory because it kept a straight line.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:48 pm

Thanks Seabas -- really great analysis and insight. I can't say I've ever actually given a conscious thought to the "elbow chop" before. A friend of mine told me he focuses on getting explosion on the target line, everything moving forward towards the target, and that was the first I ever gave thought to moving my elbow first.

I was a switch hitter in baseball growing up, so a lot of my muscle memory for a RHBH throw is built around the contact zone for a baseball swing, with sounds like it's farther back than the disc golf hit. Would that be accurate?

I went back and read through some of the drills and notice Black_T talking about using the Hammer Pound to understand the timing of the chop a bit, so I'll go back and read more and give it a try in my living room tonight. Do you have any elbow chop focus points/teaching points before I dive in? I'm going to the park again tomorrow after work, so I'll try to take another video then to compare.

Thanks again, Seabas
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby seabas22 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:16 pm

Compared to a baseball swing, it's like pulling the ball way right toward 1st base batting lefty, so yeah a bit further forward since we only use one arm at time in disc golf. This is why closing your stance should help as well, so you pull it straight instead of right. If you have had some good griplocks thats closer to hitting it, so you need to adjust your aim/stance. Pulling the disc in straight line and close to the chest basically requires you to bend your elbow/lead with the elbow. The throw is similar to throwing an elbow at someone and then backfisting them on the same target line.

If you combine what your friend said with the hammer pound, it's basically the same thing. You want to throw the momentum of the disc like throwing a hammer or stick or your bat toward the target. Don't worry about spinning the bat, just throw it as far as you can and it will spin. The stickies in the technique section are great at explaining in slightly different ways especially the secret technique, snap2009, and driving tips with dan beto threads/vids.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby JR » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:03 pm

Tired will get back to you later but i'm busy for a while. In the meantime, what happens when you throw with the thumb moving a quarter inch at a time toward the center of the disc?

Checkpoints for the arm. Elbow should be at least 8" closer to the target than the side before the elbow straightens out and the torso should face around 90 degrees left of the target.

4 quick checks for handling nose up. Are you pulling on a constant height above the ground? Are you pushing enough with the rear leg to get upright or a few degrees forward when the disc leaves the fingers? Do you actively push the wrist down and hold the disc in the hand so that the disc is parallel with the forearm bones running from the wrist to the elbow?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:14 pm

seabas22 wrote:Pulling the disc in straight line and close to the chest basically requires you to bend your elbow/lead with the elbow. The throw is similar to throwing an elbow at someone and then backfisting them on the same target line.


Thanks for that comment. That crystalizes it more for me. I think in a couple of the videos above, my lead elbow is actually dropping low. Any of you see that too? Or am I really crazy?

seabas22 wrote:The stickies in the technique section are great at explaining in slightly different ways especially the secret technique, snap2009, and driving tips with dan beto threads/vids.


Funny you mention it, I've watched snap2009 a couple of times and the concept is still difficult to grasp. I understand the ligament tension built by the weight of the disc causing the wrist to close, which then unleashes with a "snap" as the arm extends along the target line. Does that sound accurate?

JR wrote:Tired will get back to you later but i'm busy for a while. In the meantime, what happens when you throw with the thumb moving a quarter inch at a time toward the center of the disc?


Thanks JR, regardless of being tired. I really appreciate it. I actually haven't tried moving my thumb back toward the center of the flight plate yet. For some reason, when I grip the disc with my thumb pad towards the center -- away from the rim -- and I press down firmly, I can't help but think I'm changing the shape of the disc and in some way negatively altering its natural flight. This has always been a poor assumption on my part, but in the feel of the game combined w/ trying to keep the nose down, I've never really tried it.

JR wrote:4 quick checks for handling nose up. Are you pulling on a constant height above the ground? Are you pushing enough with the rear leg to get upright or a few degrees forward when the disc leaves the fingers? Do you actively push the wrist down and hold the disc in the hand so that the disc is parallel with the forearm bones running from the wrist to the elbow?


These are great, and I will begin to focus on them.
(1) I know I should pull on a consistent height, but it's pretty clear from what seabas22 noted, my reach back is high off the ground, when it gets to my chest, it's low, and then the release is high again.
(2) I feel my rear leg push forward, and I think I'm upright on my release, maybe even slightly tilted back like a hitter in baseball trying to drive through the ball. This is built through years of playing that sport, and like seabas22 was saying, I need to visualize pulling through the disc forward of my body.
(3) I don't think I'm actively pushing hte disc down, and I definitely need to find a way to orient it so that it's parallel with the forearm. I think I have a problem with releasing hyzer by having the disc at an angle in relation to the forearm bones. Does that make sense?

Again, thanks guys. Much appreciated. Doesn't look like I'll be able to get out today due to weather, so I may try some more hammer pound drills and maybe right pec drill without releasing it.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby seabas22 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:27 pm

I wouldn't concern yourself too much about elbow dropping at this point due to the high reachback, as starting lower should help. Another thing to note which I should have earlier is your followthrough, its non-existent. This means you are not punching through the apex, but slapping it. Basically you are throwing the disc like spinning a frisbee, instead of throwing the hammer. When you throw the disc's momentum your rear shoulder/side will get pulled into the followthrough and point at the target. Your followthrough is the tuning fork of your form.

You are correct about the tendon bounce. You ultimately want to get your body to build all the levers to unleash that bounce. This is where working the hit backwards helps. I had a lot of ah-ha moments from the snap2009 vids, and then reading the thread helped even more. I had trouble understanding dan beto when he was talking about punching at the target, but there is a thread titled totally fricking awesome or something that really helped me understand that better. You should also note that when brad is talking about throwing the opposite side of the disc it's really throwing as if the hammer's head is straight out from your thumb.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:59 pm

Thanks seabas...I'm going to look for that now. Were you ever worried about hyper-extending your elbow from punching at the target too hard? I tried this a couple times with the towell drill and I felt my elbow lock up. Doing it wrong?
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby seabas22 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:50 pm

Never allow your elbow to lock up. This is why I prefer going through the motion with a heavy object like a hammer, stick, golf club, sword, bat, or whatever, because your body will not allow you to lock out for safety sake. The elbow is weakest fully extended, and you never lock your elbow throwing a punch. Throwing a punch locked would be much more devastating to the elbow than the target. I only use the towel drill as a warm up, and it lacks in teaching to throw the disc's momentum, but is still good for teaching late acceleration.

These are the threads that helped fill some gaps for me:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6955
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12748
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21385&hilit=combining+concepts

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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:27 pm

Ok, I think I get what you're saying on the elbow extension. The weather here is going to clear up tomorrow, so I'm going to read through all of those threads you shared and put everything into practice tomorrow. As much as I can anyway. Hank you again for the help, and I'll update tomorrow w/ questions and how things went.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby JR » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:22 am

Wrist raising above neutral was a problem on all but the best drive. That issue needs work. On the best throw you pulled lower than shoulder height which helps in pushing down with the thumb and the wrist.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:48 am

JR wrote:Wrist raising above neutral was a problem on all but the best drive. That issue needs work. On the best throw you pulled lower than shoulder height which helps in pushing down with the thumb and the wrist.


Wow. This is great. I've never noticed it, and it's so much a part of my form it feels weird not to do this. Going to the field today to work on a couple things. With all this great feedback, I'm going to need to take notes on a couple of focus items.

So far, this is what I've got:

- Elbow 8" closer to target than front-side when disc comes to right pec
- Lower wrist to it's neutral
- Lower height of reach back
- Pull level
- Play around with thumb placement

.....There are so many other great feedback items here that I don't want to go too crazy thinking too much. I"m going to either use closed shoulder or 1-step into the right pec drill to get the timing between arm speed and shoulder rotation.

Seriously thanks guys. All great feedback.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby JR » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:33 am

For visual reference check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pk23LeyVk4 and Disc Golf Monthly 94 on Youtube.

One more item to make your head spin :-) You should eventually try pushing the wrist below neutral as well and raising the rear of the disc out of the seam of the hand. To see how well you can keep the nose down. Nose is a funny term because some actually aim to the apex by raising the nose up to look at the apex point imagined downrange at the desired height. For really demanding and developing training later on after the mechanics are getting solid you can add a serious checkpoints to the flight path like when the disc turns, how much height, anny, sideways miss and nose angle there is and the same for when the disc flexes back to flat and then fade. On the course one can do the same for going around objectives. Those routines are never over because it pays to visualize shots for the rest of your career.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:43 am

Wow...yeah, that definitely adds some mental spin, lol. I need to do some foraging around here for threads on griplock. I think that's one of my other issues.

It's funny. I cant get any distance past 250 feet with my current form, but doing this and reading through this thread and the technique thread, some of the pieces are beginning to make sense.

To make things less confusing when I go out today, I think I need a couple of activation words. "Elbow chop" "Pull low" "wrist down." I'll start there w/ closed shoulder and get a couple more videos up.

-- Kinda OT ... what video editor do you guys use on PCs to put up vids in slow motion. I'm shooting using the Coaches Eye app on my iPhone, which allows you to go frame by frame on the phone itself. Great app. But that doesn't translate to YT obviously.
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Re: RHBH Critique Please -- Nose-up/Air Bounce Issues

Postby K-Rob » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:54 am

JR wrote:For visual reference check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pk23LeyVk4 and Disc Golf Monthly 94 on Youtube.


...P.S. Best video yet. If I had an overhead shot of my line, I'm nearly positive I'm rounding. Absolutely 100%. I end up over-correcting a lot too where I start rounding and then let go of the disc where I imagine the apex to be. Great KC vid.
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