Confused about Innova turn rating!

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Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby herniated disc » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:54 pm

Hi all,
New here and have some basic questions. Please help if you can.
Basically, I don't understand what the turn rating(third # on Innova discs) means? On their site it says that discs are rated from +1 to -5. With the +1 being the most resistant to turning over or banking to the right, and the -5 with the most turn to the right, for RHBH throws. Ok, so when I throw the Shark(mid-range)with a turn rating of 0, supposedly with high resistance to right bank, it flies straight. Which is good because I have been working on using only the Shark to learn mechanics and work on accuracy. But I also have tried throwing the Innova TL(fairway) which also has a turn rating of 0, and the Vulcan(distance) which has a turn rating of -4, which is supposed to have the most right turn in it and they both bank hard left and stay like that until they hit the ground. I don't understand what is going on. I can throw the Shark about 250 ft average, not that great, sometimes more/less. What do you think is the problem? Logic tells me that I don't have enough power to get the TL and Vulcan to even turn to the right and they are going into fade immediately. But I can throw the Shark pretty well. IDK. Please help.

Also, I can throw the Shark on an Anhyzer and it will level out and then fade with a nice 'S' flight. Will it do the same thing using hyzer or not? Or would this only happen using a disc with a (-) turn rating? I ask because reading what the discs are supposed to do by following Innovas explanation of their rating system you would have to use the (-) rated to get it to do this(like the Vulcan). But seeing as how when I throw it goes straight into a left bank, it would seem as putting hyzer on it would only cause even more bank.

Sorry if these are noob questions but I am completely and totally confused. I want to get better so that I can make different kinds of shots and not rely solely on straight away.

Thanks everyone.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby Itchy » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:25 pm

First off, flight guidelines are bogus anyway.

Answering your question.
A disc's flight has two phases of stability, high speed and low speed. [For a RHBH] High speed stability is when the disc spinning faster (right out of your hand) and makes the disc want to turn over to the right. Low speed stability is after the disc has cruised and is slowing down, making it want to fade back left. Looking at the Shark, assuming you have the required power 4 and a clean technique you should see it fly a 0 to 2 flight with 4 glide.

You can anney any disc, not just one with a negative turn rating. You can use OAT to artificially make the disc turn, you can throw it with a harder snap to make it fly faster than it's rated for, you can release the disc at a hard angle forcing it to bank over, etc. So yes, if you have a lot of snap and release that Shark flat, it'll turn over and anney. Same for the TL. I can thrown my TLs flat and have them anney to the ground.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby Star Shark » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:38 pm

I'd also suspect that you're throwing the drivers nose up. The Faster the disc, the more sensitive to nose angle it's going to be.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby herniated disc » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:21 pm

Star Shark wrote:I'd also suspect that you're throwing the drivers nose up. The Faster the disc, the more sensitive to nose angle it's going to be.

This could be the problem also. Guess I just need to continue throwing it until I get the right angle of attack. Thanks for your input.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby JHern » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:51 am

Itchy wrote:First off, flight guidelines are bogus anyway.


Very true. They are a marketing gimmick, but they have been quite successful for Innova. They over-simplify the characteristics of the flight of a disc, and they use subjective numbers. The idea is that the customer (you) will:
-Grow accustomed to using the ratings, and become somewhat addicted to using them, which will discourage you from throwing Discraft (which reports only a single number, even more over-simplified).
-Think that Innova knows what they're doing. People see numbers all over the place an assume it is very technical stuff, and must be highly engineered.


Itchy wrote:A disc's flight has two phases of stability, high speed and low speed.


Only if you want to define 2 phases. There are as many phases of flight as you can slice and dice. Innova's rating system actually touches 3 phases of flight, the high speed turn, the straight glide, and the fade. Pretty much all discs thrown level will "turn" over to the right at a sufficiently high speed, and when they slow down during flight they become straighter and this is where much of the glidey distance comes from. And when it slows down further it eventually begins to hyzer out ("fade"). If the disc is flying nose up relative to the air flowing around it, the speeds at which the above transitions occur will usually increase (i.e., you have to throw faster to get the disc to turn over right), and the disc will lift up higher in the air. If the disc is flying nose down relative to the air flowing around it, the speeds at which the above transitions occur will usually decrease (i.e., you can get the disc to turn over right at slower speeds), and the disc will tend to dive down in the air.

Itchy wrote:[For a RHBH] High speed stability is when the disc spinning faster (right out of your hand) and makes the disc want to turn over to the right.


It is thought that the tendency to turn over right has nothing to do with how fast it is spinning, only the air speed and angle of attack matters. This was shown in wind tunnel experiments. But, if it is spinning faster, then for the same angle of attack and air speed the disc will turn/fade more slowly. What makes the disc turn over, go straight, or fade is the stream of turbulent air flowing around the disc, and the often off-center character of the pressure fluctuations it exerts on the disc. The form of the air flow is dictated by the shape of the disc, the air speed, and angle of attack. If the air lifts the nose, the disc gyroscopically precesses left, if the air lifts the tail, the disc gyroscopically precesses right. If it lifts dead center, then it goes dead straight. For reasons that are not well-understood, the spin doesn't seem to affect the lift of the nose vs. tail...perhaps it is because what is gained on one side is lost on the other.

Air flow is highly non-linear and turbulent, and small changes can have large effects. This is why two discs of ostensibly the same mold can fly very differently, or why the discs change their flight a great deal with age and wear, or why the profiles of many disc molds look very similar but yield very different flights.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby herniated disc » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:04 pm

Good info Jhern. Ok,so...the numbers don't mean anything? So it truly is trial by fire and just keep throwing your discs until you get it right and stop worrying about the rating systems. Well, I guess their system works because I have been spending plenty of time searching for discs that have the same turn ratings as the Shark seeing as I have had a pretty easy time learning to control it and would like to achieve more distance using a disc with characteristics similar to it. I guess I got caught up in their exercise in futility.
My biggest handicap is that I have a bad right knee and it is hard to plant on it and follow through like all the videos you find on the net. All my power has to come from upper body and technique(obviously a work in progress). Could use one of those Discraft 'clinics'. lol
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:21 am

You are throwing nose up (already mentioned) or just lack the snap to get/keep those discs up to cruising speed. When I first started really getting serious about disc golf, a couple of beat rocs were my best drivers. I could get them to hold any line I wanted and could throw them 275'ish before I could really start getting the hang of a driver* properly.


*I started throwing SE leopards and KC cheetahs as my first real drivers.

The rating numbers aren't useless as they let you compare innova discs to innova discs, it is limited however since you can't really translate those numbers to other manufacturers. This is where a resource like Joe's Flight Chart comes into play since it compares discs across manufacturers.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby herniated disc » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:04 pm

Thanks Frank, I will take a better look at that chart. I went out today and decided to throw the Leopard for a change. I tried tweaking my throwing style a bit to closer resemble a video I found on 'snap'. Here: http://youtu.be/qGGYsSUGKXk Tried focusing on coming across the chest more and snapping. Got my first Birdie :o . Still need to work on consistency but I'm not complaining.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby JHern » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:13 pm

herniated disc wrote:Thanks Frank, I will take a better look at that chart...


Basically, don't worry about the chart. Take the board members' suggestions about what discs to learn with, and try to correct the symptoms (nose up, etc.).
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby Itchy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:07 pm

herniated disc wrote:... Got my first Birdie :o ...


I remember when I got my first big boy birdie; it was hole #6 at Waller Park in Santa Maria, CA. I came on here all happy and told everybody about it and about 15 minutes later somebody posted a YouTube video of Avery acing it with a stupid friggin' putter.

Moral of the story: These guys are jerk faces.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby NoLifeLeft » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:44 pm

Itchy wrote:Moral of the story: These guys are jerk faces.

Welcome to the Internet.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby herniated disc » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:34 pm

Itchy wrote:
herniated disc wrote:... Got my first Birdie :o ...


I remember when I got my first big boy birdie; it was hole #6 at Waller Park in Santa Maria, CA. I came on here all happy and told everybody about it and about 15 minutes later somebody posted a YouTube video of Avery acing it with a stupid friggin' putter.

Moral of the story: These guys are jerk faces.


I guess it all depends on how you look at it, Itchy. Me personally, I wouldn't be upset that someone posted that video. I would be amazed at the talent and skill of that individual who could Ace the same hole I can only Birdie, and do it with a putter. WOW! Gives you something to strive for. Besides, you don't need anyone else to praise your accomplishment for it to be a big deal to you.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:16 pm

I love that story Itchy.
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby Itchy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:19 pm

@HalfLifeLeft, I was wondering what this strange new thing was called...

@Herniated D, Haha, was just a joke

@Frankie D, Yeah me too, I laughed pretty hard when I watched it. Kind of a, "who the fuck cares," slap to the face.... haha
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Re: Confused about Innova turn rating!

Postby herniated disc » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:29 pm

Sorry Itchy. I didn't pick up on it. Just had my gallbladder removed and am all doped up on meds. Didn't want you feeling bad about your birdie. lol
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