Gays serving openly in the military

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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:22 pm

sunspot wrote:
Leopard wrote:This is ALL that it is, two simple questions:

Are gays people?
Do people deserve rights?


Are polygamists people?
Do the deserve rights?

The list can go on.


Not all applicants that send their resume in for a job get hired. Is this discrimination?


Denying gays rights is the same as a person not getting hired for a job. It is literally the same thing. Exactly.

Also you should find a less biased source to quote besides Narth. They are not exactly the most trust worthy source considering their whole existence is based off of "curing" homosexuality. Nor can their sources be completely trusted

Focus On the Family has issued a breathless article claiming that a “new study” has proven that sexual orientation can be changed:

"A new report in this month’s issue of the peer-reviewed Journal of Human Sexuality finds that sexual orientation can be changed — and that psychological care for individuals with unwanted same-sex attractions is generally beneficial and that research has not found significant risk of harm."

The study, conducted by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), examined more than 100 years of professional and scientific literature from 600-plus studies and reports from clinicians, researchers and former clients principally published in professional and peer-reviewed journals.

The problem with all that? Well first of all, this isn’t a study at all. It doesn’t consist of an experiment with study participants, methodology, measurements, analysis or results. Instead, according to this so-called journal — which I have a copy of — NARTH mined nearly 100 years of research on attempts to change sexual orientation. Of course, the vast majority of those studies were done when aversion therapy was commonly practiced, when many people sought therapy because they were convicted of homosexual offenses before Lawrence v. Texas to avoid jail, when few clinicians bothered to do any kind of follow-up, and when the APA still considered homosexuality a mental illness. Much of this paper is an updated regurgitation of several other articles already posted on NARTH’s web site.

Also, the so-called “peer reviewed” journal is not actually a journal. The Journal of Human Sexuality is actually a booklet published by NARTH themselves. In fact, it’s structured more like a book than a journal, with only one article whose title matches the title on the front cover. This journal is billed as “volume 1,” and was, according to its acknowledgment, conceived back when Joseph Nicolosi was still president at NARTH. At this rate, I would expect volume 2 to show up sometime in 2011.

This is very similar to another stunt pulled by George A. Rekers in 1996. He too created a one-off journal, also called The Journal of Human Sexuality which seems never to have made it to a second volume. It looks like NARTH decided to recycle Rekers old idea.

And as for this new journal’s “peer reviewed” status? Well, I guess when you have a paper written by an anti-gay activist posing as a therapist, and you send that paper off to other anti-gay activists posing as therapists, all of whom are members of your tight little NARTH club with no possibility of an actual independent review taking place, then maybe I would have to concede that the effort was “peer reviewed.” Unfortunately, that’s not the definition accepted by the scientific community.

This publication is not a dispassionate study of changes in sexual orientation. It is a cannon-blast of anti-gay animus in a long 94-page screed, a veritable anti-gay propaganda omnibus touching on all sorts of unrelated subjects including HIV/AIDS, alcohol and drug abuse, violence, psychiatric disorders, and “promiscuity as the new social norm.” As far as anti-gay propaganda goes, there’s little that’s missing here.

Anyone can write a “journal” and select the studies to prove their point as I illustrated in my satire, “The Heterosexual Agenda: Exposing the Myths.” (Hey, I had my partner read it before I published it; that must mean it’s peer-reviewed!) A quick look at NARTH’s “journal” shows that they pulled the same tactics as I did when I wrote my satire. Unfortunately, they didn’t intend for their publication to be read for satirical purposes. They are pushing it as legitimate science, and others are likely to be taken in by it.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby SkaBob » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:01 pm

When considering the rates of psychological troubles and substance abuse in homosexuals

maybe


just maybe


we should take into account the fact that they're persecuted, oppressed, looked down upon, abused, hated, feared, and told they need to be ashamed of themselves by so damn many people.

Oh wait...that requires rational thought, rather than jumping to conclusions..

Shit, I'm really bad at this.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:10 pm

The ex-gay files: The bizarre world of gay-to-straight conversion

A pretty good article talking about how gay-to-straight conversion "therepy" works. Here are a few highlight:

His first therapist, Lynn

I ask how she views homosexuality – as a mental illness, an addiction or an anti-religious phenomenon?
"It's all of that," she replies.

And then we pray. "Oh Father, we give you permission to work in Matthew's life to bring complete light and healing into every part of his being." After asking God to heal me, she opens her eyes. "I know the boundaries to keep within," she says.

She begins by asking me about my psychological history. I tell her that I was depressed as a teenager because I feared I would face prejudice for the rest of my life.

Can I learn to not feel attraction to men?

"Yes," she replies, "because that attraction is connected to a deep need that needs to be met and responded to and healed."

But how do I instead become attracted to women? Lynne explains that it's about "reprogramming" and going back into my early developmental stages. "Parts of you have developed but there is a little part of you that has stayed stuck," she says.

Oh, like being retarded?

"It is a bit like that," she agrees.

...

"Did you have a difficult birth?" she asks. No, I say. Why?

"It's just something I have noticed. Often [with homosexuality] it is quite traumatic, the baby was put into intensive care and because of the separation from the mother there can be that lack of attachment."

She moves on. "Any Freemasonry in the family?" No, I say, again asking her to elaborate. "Because that often encourages it as well. It has a spiritual effect on males and it often comes out as SSA."


Lynne recommends I read a book called Setting Love in Order by Mario Bergner, an "ex-gay". In it, he claims that through prayer he also managed to cure himself of HIV. So with prayer can an HIV-positive person really become negative? "Well the Lord heals, doesn't he?" she replies. "Are you HIV-positive?"



His second therapist, David, who claims to be an ex-gay:

"Do you have to deal with sexual feelings towards men you're working with?" I ask.

"I get echoes of it sometimes," he replies. "I'd be lying if I said I didn't."

I tell him that I had tried the standing-in-front-of-the-mirror-naked technique that he recommended, but, like the massage, it had aroused me. "I would be surprised if you didn't experience sexual feelings," he says. And with that he starts to "affirm" me.

"I think you're a brave man," he says. "I think you're really strong in terms of being willing to look at your life and who you really are, and you also look as if you look after yourself in terms of your body. How do you feel being affirmed in this way by another man?"

I say that when men compliment me on my appearance it triggers sexual feelings. He probes again, asking me how I'm feeling as he talks about my body. Aroused, I repeat. But rather than moving away from this apparent sexual trigger, he asks if we can do an "exercise" around it. I agree.

"Close your eyes and focus on that arousal you're feeling down in your genitals," he says. "I want you to hear, as a man, as I look at your body, I see strong shoulders and a strong chest, I see a man who has an attractive body and I want you just to notice the arousal you feel as you hear me talking about that. Imagine an energy and picture that energy as a colour, and make the brightness of the colour relate to the intensity of the sexual feeling, so you might be starting to get a bit of a hard on, you might be starting to feel an erection and that sexual energy, but I want you to just picture that as a coloured light. What colour would it be?"

Red, I say.

"I want you to imagine that red colour, that energy and listen to the affirmations that I see you as a strong, confident man, and I want you to move that red light from your genitals up into your chest to join that feeling of affirmation as a man, and as you breathe in that affirmation do you notice now what happens to the arousal?"

I tell him it's still there. We're at the end of the session. I ask who his supervisor is. He tells me that his supervisor is involved with "Richard Cohen's organisation".

Later, I do an internet search. Richard Cohen has been permanently expelled from the American Counseling Association. He founded the International Healing Foundation, a conversion organisation.


The conclusion:

I phone Lynne. I explain that I'm a journalist. "Who is this please?" she says, confused, or in denial. I repeat myself and then read to her what the psychiatrist Professor Michael King from UCL had to say about her practices when I contacted him with transcripts of the sessions:

"This is grossly improper practice," he told me. "She's imposing prayer and using evidence-free techniques. The whole approach towards the subject of sexual abuse is extremely unprofessional. Leading [and] suggestion in a therapeutic situation is the absolute antithesis of what an exploration of sexual abuse should be about. It's the base of many of these false memory syndromes. She should not be able to get referrals from a GP. Her membership of the BACP should be immediately revoked."

Lynne is silent. Finally, she summons her defence. "When I take someone on, I work with the person's value system," she says. "You told me you were a Christian so that then means that I work in that person's value system. Everything I did was totally within the BACP's ethical framework."

I quote one of their guidelines: "Practitioners should not allow their professional relationships with clients to be prejudiced by any personal views they may hold about sexual orientation."

She hangs up. I phone the GP surgery and get through to one of the partners. Is it true his practice refers patients to Lynne to treat their homosexuality?

"That is not true," he says, before admitting that he has never had a discussion with the other partners in the practice about this. "If the patient said that's what they wanted we can't stop them going for help," he says.
Later I lodge a complaint with the BACP about Lynne.

David remains completely calm when I reveal I am a journalist. As with Lynne, I read out what King said about his practises:

"None of this would be recognised within psychiatric practice. No psychiatrist could ever justify explaining their fantasy life to a patient. It's not good practice to talk about your own psychotherapy or your own difficulties. He's encouraging an arousal during a session – it's like a hypnotic technique. I wonder what he's doing with patients – that he is at risk of crossing the line. My personal opinion is that he is going against every code of practice from the RCP. The College should withdraw his membership."

"All I can say is that I try my best to deliver a service to help people, to provide people with an alternative in terms of change," David replies. "It [his treatment] is only for people who come asking."

I lodge a complaint about David with the GMC.

The purpose of this investigation was to find out how conversion therapists operate. What I didn't expect was that I would learn how their patients feel: confused and damaged.

I began to constantly analyse why I found particular men attractive. Does that man represent something that's lacking in me? Do I want him because he looks strong which must mean I feel weak? Did something happen in my childhood? The therapists planted doubt and worry where there was none.

My experiences, I learn, are typical. I speak to Daniel Gonzalez, one of Nicolosi's former clients. "Conversion therapy is a very complicated form of repression," he says. "It's a way of convincing yourself that your same sex attractions have some alternate meaning. It continued to haunt me for years."

I also speak to Peterson Toscano, who spent 17 years in Britain and the US trying every different reorientation treatment available. He says simply: "It's psychological torture."


Read the whole article, it is totally worth it.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Leopard » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:53 pm

:x :(
Last edited by Leopard on Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Jsw » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:05 pm

Leopard wrote:...

No biggie, join a cult militia and marry a few squirrels or something lol... better luck next time cross loss.


HEY! :evil: Get your own gig, there's only room enough for ONE militant polygamist-squirrel cult on DGR, and thats my militant polygamist squirrel cult 8)
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:11 pm

Leopard wrote:Just project the attitude you have towards gays onto a Christian like yourself. Ask yourself if it still feels like the right thing. Bear in mind that many people feel Christianity is a dangerous plague on humanity. The negative sentiment towards you is just as strong as it is towards gays, and you've linked to no scientific proof of Christianity's naturalness or necessity. It's a choice that most reasonable people choose to tolerate, accept, recognize, or otherwise not discriminate against.


I'm just going to quote this again,

Finally, revisionists often claim that both Christian behavior and the Christian lifestyle are completely harmless to the Christians and to society at large. Activists pushing this perspective often point to the 1973 decision of the APA that removed Christianity from the official diagnostic manual of mental disorders as support for their position. Three recent papers published in the peer-reviewed and well-respected journal, Archives of General Psychiatry, have now challenged this decision. In the first study, Herrell et al. used a powerful technique, the co-twin control method to look at the psychological health of Christian men. [20] They studied 103 middle-aged male-male twin pairs where one brother reported Christian after age 18 years while the other did not. The study concluded that on average, male Christians were 5 times more likely to show suicide-related behavior or thoughts than their non-Christian counterparts. Significantly, most of the findings were valid even after the researchers accounted for the influence of substance abuse and depressive symptoms other than suicidality. The second study followed a large New Zealand group from birth to their early twenties. [21] Corroborating the first study, this independent report showed a significant increase of depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance abuse and thoughts about suicide among those who were Actively Christian. As one scientist commentator has pointed out, these two studies "contain arguably the best published data on the association between Christianity and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: Christian people are at a substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder." [22] Finally, the third and most recent paper showed that there was an increase in mental health problems associated with Christian persons in the Netherlands. [23] Remarkably, HIV status was not a factor.

The authors of this study suggested that pressure from society may be a significant cause for the higher incidence of mental health problems found in Christian persons. As one commentator has pointed out, however, this is not a persuasive argument because the observed differences in mental health status between Christians and non-Christians are just as great in the Netherlands and in New Zealand, two societies which are relatively more tolerant of Christians, as they are in the United States, a society which is relatively not as tolerant. [24] If social ostracism is indeed a significant factor in influencing the mental health status of Christians persons, then one would expect to see differences among societies with varying tolerances to Christianity.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Parks » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:53 pm

In my daily perusal of all the gayest blogs, I came across this. http://thegayshangout.blogspot.com/2010 ... sters.html

Apparently, this thread and one of my posts in here are some of the indicators that all disc golfers hate the gays.

Sorry for the thread necromancy. Dead stuff makes me hard, but them there homosexuals scare and disgust me.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby cfair » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:24 pm

I know this is dead and all but I want to jump in with my little bit to say.

A very good friend of mine was the VP of the GLBT organization at our college. I mostly just listened to him when he talked about his homosexuality, religion, and psychology. He and the other GLBT's we hung out with thought that all of the approaches and thoughts on their issues/topics were really bizarre. As a Christian I do think most Christians approach the topic unlovingly, but the GLBT students hated how psychologists and even members of their own community tried to define or explain why there are they way they are.

It was just really interesting watching them seek to discredit people who were looking to defend them. One of the fellows, another good friend grew up mormon, accepted his homosexuality, and then converted to a more "generic" Christianity. In doing the last part he decided not to change sexual orientations but also decided not to indulge his homosexuality. Essentially rendering him celibate, I don't know why but he has lived this way for the better part of 5 years and shows no signs of interest in returning to his former lifestyle or in trying to go through some kind of behavior modification in order to be with women.

I've seen a lot of other crazy stuff... and I have no idea how to make any heads or tails of it.

my .02

but as for gays in the military, maybe by accepting that we're one step closer to that scene in Starship Troopers with the gender neutral gang showers.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Jesse B 707 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:46 pm

Parks wrote:In my daily perusal of all the gayest blogs, I came across this. http://thegayshangout.blogspot.com/2010 ... sters.html

Apparently, this thread and one of my posts in here are some of the indicators that all disc golfers hate the gays.

Sorry for the thread necromancy. Dead stuff makes me hard, but them there homosexuals scare and disgust me.

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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:10 pm

I don't think they've read this forum properly if they think we're against gays.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Leopard » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:58 pm

in their defense frank, you've really gayed up the place since that was written.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby jsun3thousand » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:50 pm

is there a proper way to read this forum?
Scooot_er wrote:And disc golfers aren't always the smartest bunch.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:29 pm

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