Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

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Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby fanter » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:28 pm

Okay, without trying to explain my thought process yet (because I'm not too savvy with body mechanics terminology), I will pose this question:

Would a lower "base speed" (Arlyn's terms, see 4:15) yield (for a player trying to incorporate leverage into his/her throw) an easier opportunity to accelerate the disc through the "power zone" (Blake's term, referring to the position of the disc that best allows for snap near the leading pec)?

To rephrase/clarify: Would a higher base speed mean: A) the disc would essentially be moving at a certain speed with the thrower, B) the disc would be more prone to slip early (due to its mass and the speed at which it is already moving) during acceleration unless the thrower grips harder?

Maybe this is pretty hare-brained, but I've had success with what some on the boards have referred to as "unwrapping the body around the disc" during the x-step. (I remember reading this in a discussion about Climo, but I don't know where to find it.) I've taken smaller steps with my approach and attempted to leave my arm + disc "in the same place" and step forward and turn with it, as if someone were actually holding onto the disc. (Does this make sense?) This leaves the *disc* at a "base speed" of near zero, my body at a relatively low base speed, so therefore the "arm speed" (also Arlyn's term) can remain lower (but accelerate easier) without worrying about the weight of the disc wanting to fight out of my hand (because we keep our grip relatively loose until the pull, right?)



I'm also assuming another speed component that Arlyn doesn't offer, which is the speed of the disc in my hand during the approach. Not sure if this matters. I hope all of this makes some sense. Maybe it's all just to say that I've found how beneficial a relaxed throw is, and how I'm only just now learning how little exertion needs to go into a throw.
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby seabas22 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:29 am

I pretty much agree with what you said. I think some of it can depend on how you throw. I think Feldy calls it working around the disc.
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby fanter » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:52 am

I was hoping you'd respond, but I was expecting a number of Shawn Clement videos :P Thanks!
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby seabas22 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:17 am

I'm waiting for Shawn Clement to do a Happy Gilmore vid. :)
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby JR » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:02 am

I think you explained your position well. The slower you throw the less gripping power you need. The earlier you rip at 100 % arm speed the more difficult it is to accelerate beyond that speed. And the harder it is to hold on to the disc and stop the wrist and allow the disc to pivot so that it rips at say 5-5.30 o'clock. Ideally you want the disc ripping out at the highest speed and spinning at max speed. What your maximum for either and the best compromise between those two depends on muscle power and speed at different body parts. So it is personal and you can find your current best combination by varying when and how fast you'll accelerate the arm. And how hard you can stop the wrist and how hard you can pinch. Among other things like timing of the pause, how far the elbow leads and many others.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby JHern » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:20 pm

fanter wrote:Would a lower "base speed" (Arlyn's terms, see 4:15) yield (for a player trying to incorporate leverage into his/her throw) an easier opportunity to accelerate the disc through the "power zone" (Blake's term, referring to the position of the disc that best allows for snap near the leading pec)?


Arlyn's "base speed" is the speed of the thrower themselves, and he uses this terminology properly. But I think the reality is more complicated than that. For example, I don't really buy his claim that "if you are running forward X miles per hour it will add X miles per hour to your throw."

Basically, what you want to do with your legs and body is to transfer forward momentum into angular momentum in your torso. That's what the x-step accomplishes. Arlyn's plant-heel-forward step is good for transferring your legs' energy into a hip pivot (so long as you can pivot off your foot well enough to relieve knee stress), which in turn whips the shoulders around. A 360 helps you to add more angular momentum than you can get with just the X-step, and anyways it's a straightforward extension of the X-step further back in time.

What you want to have happen, of course, is for the body's energy to become available at the same time your arm is reaching the region of maximum controlled leverage, and also at the same rate that your body can move through those positions and smoothly apply power to the disc. You don't always want to pour on this power all at once, a smooth power band is better because it is easier for your fingers to maintain a grip. How smooth? What you are seeking is "resonance" between the speed at which your arm positions naturally move and the driving force of your body. So getting this kind of resonance is really almost entirely about body positions and timing. But once it's achieved, you can get amazing results with little effort.

If you're more skilled, have the athletic coordination, and the strength, then you can handle more initial arm speed, and transfer energy into the disc from your body at a higher rate. Obviously you need a fantastic grip strength if you start pulling as fast as possible. It's just that it is very difficult to control this motion and get clean throws...in maximizing disc flight a clean throw is critical. I've seen some amazing long throwers in real time, such as Sandstrom, who simply possess super-human athletic skills. He can manage insanely fast initial arm speeds, and getting velocities onto the disc itself that are simply amazing (it sounds like the disc is tearing a hole across the sky).

Us ordinary individuals have to slow it down, and get the resonance working at lower speeds and slower rates of energy transfer between body and arm. When we try to speed up too fast, or apply too much force, our coordination and conditioning are not sufficient to keep up the resonance, so our throws actually worsen. This is why it sometimes seems like you throw shorter when you're really trying hard to throw further.
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby JR » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:21 pm

It does not only seem that you throw shorter while trying harder. At times you do throw shorter. That happened to me yesterday in field practice several times. My body control isn't good enough to accelerate as well with the arm with a run up than with a slow x step. I would not wonder if the difference comes also from better left leg push and hip twist.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby JHern » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:26 am

JR wrote:It does not only seem that you throw shorter while trying harder. At times you do throw shorter...


Right, which is really what I am saying. Throwing "harder" doesn't work. It destroys efficiency more than the gain in pure muscle, so you end up in a cycle of diminishing returns, 1 step forward, 2 steps back type of thing.
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Re: Speed Components, Half-witted Conjecture

Postby JR » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:44 pm

I think the issue for me is too slow left leg and not enough hip twist at higher speed sacrificing rotational leverage for straight line running speed. Having a bad back probably limits my hip twist at higher speeds and often times i can't get the hips to twist even if i try to at higher speeds grr. At least unless i jam my right leg and get the hips twisting from inertia. Oh to be young and healthy. I had a lot of hip twist when i started. Overspeeding with one part of the form and not being able keep up with the rest of the body can't be good for progress and certainly ain't for repeated accuracy.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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