Grow the sport? No thanks.

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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby Jeronimo » Thu May 10, 2012 7:50 am

Ryan C wrote:Feldberg might be a scrub compared to some of the people disc golf might attract if it were viewed as a worthwhile pursuit. But as it is now, why would someone with a sports scholarship, or even a current professional athlete, invest time in a sport that only pays out in the thousands for winning a world championship?


Comments like this bug me. "Athletes" don't belong on the pedestals their acolytes are all too willing to bow down in front of. The notion that a player as good as Feldberg would be considered a "scrub" when compared with a "true athlete", if the sport were large enough to garner the attention of said true "atheletes", is preposterous. What makes Tom Brady such a good QB? He decided to take it seriously and train for it (his own words, paraphrased).

It'll be a long while before someone breaks Climo's records. Wiggins Jr probably has the best shot at it considering he's been raised eating, breathing, drinking, farting disc golf.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby martinb » Thu May 10, 2012 8:02 am

[/quote]
It'll be a long while before someone breaks Climo's records. Wiggins Jr probably has the best shot at it considering he's been raised eating, breathing, drinking, farting disc golf.[/quote]

The expanded player base will keep that from ever happening. nothing against wiggins, but theres too many "good" players out there and more of them coming out every day.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby Ryan C » Thu May 10, 2012 10:08 am

Jeronimo wrote:
Ryan C wrote:Feldberg might be a scrub compared to some of the people disc golf might attract if it were viewed as a worthwhile pursuit. But as it is now, why would someone with a sports scholarship, or even a current professional athlete, invest time in a sport that only pays out in the thousands for winning a world championship?


Comments like this bug me. "Athletes" don't belong on the pedestals their acolytes are all too willing to bow down in front of. The notion that a player as good as Feldberg would be considered a "scrub" when compared with a "true athlete", if the sport were large enough to garner the attention of said true "atheletes", is preposterous. What makes Tom Brady such a good QB? He decided to take it seriously and train for it (his own words, paraphrased).

It'll be a long while before someone breaks Climo's records. Wiggins Jr probably has the best shot at it considering he's been raised eating, breathing, drinking, farting disc golf.


I'm not necessarily saying Feldberg would be a scrub, but who knows? I think its safe to say that disc golf's athletes are, ON AVERAGE, not as good as the average athlete you'll find playing professional soccer. It is possible, of course, that Feldberg would still be a top 10 player even after a million more dedicated athletes pick up the sport. But I wouldn't I bet much money on it.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby keltik » Thu May 10, 2012 10:32 am

I think it would be nice to have teams at high school and middle school level. That doesn't have anything to do with television coverage. but it does involve some level of adult supervision. Could drive the riff-raff out of the parks. Or it could put DG courses on more campuses.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Thu May 10, 2012 12:28 pm

Jeronimo wrote:...It'll be a long while before someone breaks Climo's records.


Yeah, Nate still has 9 more Worlds to win, and lots of amazing young talent nipping at his heels.

Jeronimo wrote:Wiggins Jr probably has the best shot at it considering he's been raised eating, breathing, drinking, farting disc golf.


...Will Schusterick, Paul McBeth, Ricky Wysocki, GG,...and more coming all the time.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby Jeronimo » Thu May 10, 2012 1:12 pm

Undeniably, increasing the field of players will drive the performance of players up, that's competition. It's when we say things like "true athletes play real sports" that gets under my skin. There is no group of super athletically elect that trump the rest of the world. There are however individuals who may acclimate to particular athletic skills through their particular physical gifts, such as: Height/Basketball, Size/Football, Arm strength/Baseball, etc... Though the deciding factor is nearly always going to be commitment to and quality of training in honing metal preparedness and technique. Look at Climo, he's nearly got the (supposed) perfect build for the sport: Tall, large wingspan, flexible, lean, and focused.

JHern, no doubt. Any of those guys could easily be the next top chuckers. If they have the passion and tenacity.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby jubuttib » Thu May 10, 2012 2:16 pm

Ryan C wrote:I think its safe to say that disc golf's athletes are, ON AVERAGE, not as good as the average athlete you'll find playing professional soccer.
Same could be said for professional golfers, and many other athletes. Disc golf is a game that requires one to be much more than just physically fit.

Having more "serious sportsmen" in DG would certainly drive the average of performance higher up, but I'm not sure that sure top level of performance would be hugely affected.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Fri May 11, 2012 12:00 am

Jeronimo wrote:...There is no group of super athletically elect that trump the rest of the world...


I see your point, but I only partly agree. I think you have to spend time with pros from some of the elite sports, and you'll find that there is something extraordinary in almost all of them. They are literally almost all freaks of nature. (There are a few exceptions, people who work extremely hard and get to the pros, but even they still have a little special something). I know we take it for granted, and watching them on TV doesn't do them any justice at all. Going to the live games, and seeing it for yourself, is always an amazing experience if you can comprehend the speed and coordination involved in their performances.

And then there are the athletes that are just so far out there, who rise above and beyond even the field of top players, to become historical figures, true legends. I think you'll have a difficult time convincing anyone that guys like Jim Thorpe, Pelé, Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, etc., didn't have buttloads of almost super-natural physical talent. Of course they worked extremely hard to gain skills, and had mental talent for devotion to their game, but when they put the work into it, they got much larger returns than ordinary folks and became the best of the best, ever!

The same is true of other human traits. For example, some people simply aren't as intellectually talented as others. It doesn't mean that people can't learn sophisticated subjects and utilize their knowledge in clever ways, even if they're not a super-genius. It just means that they have to work many times harder to get the same return as somebody for whom all of it is just a cakewalk.

Another obvious example is musical talent. Examples of individuals supremely talented at musical arts are too well-known to even require citation.

And guess what? If you aren't a super-talented athlete, or a super-talented intellectual, etc., then you will never really understand what it is like to be one. You can't know. There really is no point in trying to equate them with ordinary souls. They will usually present modesty, but under the veneer of civility is the truth that some of us are simply physically awkward and/or mentally dull in comparison to those who are naturally gifted. It's as simple as that.

People who are ordinary, but who are led to believe that they can be as smart as anyone else, or as athletically accomplished as any athlete, if only they work hard enough, are being led astray. Many feel perpetually guilty that their lack of success owes to a moral failing, laziness, etc., when oftentimes it is simply that they don't have the capacity that some others possess for achievement in the pursuit in question. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to excel in doing whatever they love, or that laziness should be excused as lack of talent. It just means that most of us have limits that a few don't have.

.................

In disc golf, there is already a difference in natural talent. I just watched Avery bombing a few throws at DeLa this evening, and while there is no question that he has worked incredibly hard to gain those skills, I think he still qualifies as one of those people who are simply well above the standard deviation of natural athletic skill. I sincerely doubt that I could ever throw as big, even if I put in the same amount of work as Avery has done. The same goes for his sister, who could be on her way to becoming the first ever 1000-rated female player (that would be awesome!).

Feldberg is a tenacious pug, and probably qualifies as somebody who has achieved greatness in his sport by a good supply of guts, grit, and gumption. We always exclaim that he doesn't have a good golfer's mentality (he gets rattled, rushes into situations, has huge emotional swings, gets on hot/cold streaks, etc.), yet he shoots amazing scores. He just doesn't want to lose to anyone, uber-intensely competitive.

Young guns like McBeth, Leviska, Billings, Ulibari, Locastro, etc., make a lot of youthful mental mistakes. They're trying to shoot the perfect round all the time, they just don't always know when it's wise to lay up and take a lump. They don't see their limitations (although this can sometimes be a useful characteristic in driving them to excellence, in golf games it can also be a liability). They'll shoot lights-out for 1-2 rounds in a long tournament, then take a huge hit because they get into a slump and try to muscle their way out, making things worse instead of riding out by shooting solid safe rounds.

Nate Doss says he wins by playing consistently strong rounds, not by shooting course records. He admits that he can't usually break course records. Instead, he has adopted a fantastic golf mentality, and it shows.

Then there are guys like Josh Anthon. I've never seen anyone shoot like Josh when he is on one of his hot streaks. It is simply unbelievable. Here is a guy of insanely huge natural talent, and who has worked very hard to gain disk skills. He just needs to figure out how to break through for the big wins, but unless he can devote more time to the effort, he might not get over the summit.

Ken Climo is much older than these guys, but when you see him play there is no question that the game comes much easier to him. He is relaxed, when others would be nervous. He shrugs it off when others are kicking their bags. And he is making great golf shots constantly. He is easy going, has an athletic frame and stance, and is truly on another plane. For years he only had to play hard enough to beat the guy in 2nd place, and that's how his demeanor seems. Like the guys running in a race ahead of you, slowing down every once in a while to let you catch up and think you have a chance, but then turning on the after burner and cruising well ahead, with seeming ease. The only young kid out there who seems to have all the traits (physical, mental, emotional) as Ken Climo at a young age is Will Schusterick. He's my current pick for "next Ken Climo."
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby Jeronimo » Fri May 11, 2012 8:43 am

That was why I intentionally included the part where I mentioned individuals who are born with a physique that happens to line up well with a particular sport. The obvious exmaple here is someone who is over 7ft tall and the sport of Basketball. I'm not saying that individual wouldn't have an easier time, he would. However he's not necessarily going to be the 'creme of the crop' in another sport.

Let me be clear, I agree with what you are saying for the most part but I truly believe you are down playing, or even ignorant of, the effects of motivation and intiative in success. Generally these people that acclimate to intellectualism or atheleticism do so because it interests them and if the mind is entertained it will appear as if it comes "easy" or "naturally" to them, as is obviously the case with you and physics. Jordan is a great example, he'll tell you in every interview he worked HARD at what he did, and he wanted it. Playing a critical game in the finals with an intestinal stomach virus and putting up 38 points is a perfect example, that was tenacity. Was that because he was an elite specimen of humanity and he also had the motivation? Maybe, I don't know... but I do know this: He couldn't hit a change up with an ironing board in the major leagues...
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby veganray » Fri May 11, 2012 8:49 am

JHern wrote:If you aren't a super-talented athlete, or a super-talented intellectual, etc., then you will never really understand what it is like to be one. You can't know

Which are you? Or is it both? :roll:
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby bergdawg » Fri May 11, 2012 9:57 am

I wish JTacoma was on this board. He'd shit his pants clean off.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Fri May 11, 2012 10:29 am

Jeronimo wrote:...obvious exmaple...is someone who is over 7ft tall and the sport of Basketball. I'm not saying that individual wouldn't have an easier time, he would. However he's not necessarily going to be the 'creme of the crop' in another sport.


I agree with that. However, the other factors that make for good basketball playing can indeed be useful in other sports, though of course not all. There are only a few examples of athletes who could play any sport and be the best (e.g., Thorpe).

Jeronimo wrote:Let me be clear, I agree with what you are saying for the most part but I truly believe you are down playing, or even ignorant of, the effects of motivation and intiative in success...


I'm not downplaying it at all. I understand how much work is required to get to the top echelons in any sport; the necessary effort is simply staggering. This goes for everyone. There are simply people who get better results, for the same level of effort and devotion, than the vast majority of other people. I think this is pretty clear. I think it is also pretty clear that if they don't have the needed drive and focus, then they won't succeed even if they are genetically gifted.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JimW » Sun May 27, 2012 1:44 pm

A buzzz and a beer wrote:I do however think it will never be as big as some want. Its not gonna get televised. The reason I say this is that its not fun for people to watch that don't play. I have shown many friends videos of disc golf and with in 1 minute they are bored and don't want to watch it.


Some ball golf tournaments still get televised on broadcast TV, a delivery medium where even the major team sports are losing ground. You can't say that disc golf isn't interesting enough to ever get televised when so many people are interested in watching people play that.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby AcesAZ » Sun May 27, 2012 10:39 pm

Alcuin wrote:My town has been thinking about implementing pay to play, and from what I understand while they haven't taken the plunge before they're more serious than ever. The county is expanding one course to 27 holes and building another 18 and those two have their own pay to play fee structure. The others in town will then have a different daily and annual fees regulated by the city. So it could be that the whole town becomes pay to play, which could be great. They are also talking about building some 9 hole courses with more recreational layouts and keeping them free. In an ideal world, this would work out perfectly. I think we've got at least a good shot at having not only quality courses but quality disc golf too while giving people who think that disc golf is nothing but a drinking game a place to go.



I think this is the best solution as well and this trend should continue as the sport grows. Have a few pay for pay real nice tracks while having the free courses available for the recs and potheads/drunks.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby jubuttib » Mon May 28, 2012 7:13 pm

JimW wrote:
A buzzz and a beer wrote:I do however think it will never be as big as some want. Its not gonna get televised. The reason I say this is that its not fun for people to watch that don't play. I have shown many friends videos of disc golf and with in 1 minute they are bored and don't want to watch it.


Some ball golf tournaments still get televised on broadcast TV, a delivery medium where even the major team sports are losing ground. You can't say that disc golf isn't interesting enough to ever get televised when so many people are interested in watching people play that.
Golf is played by an estimated 50-60 million people world wide and 20-30 million just in the States. That's a big potential demographic right there.

I do however think that disc golf would make a very nice sport for television, at the very least it's a lot more visual than golf. The throwing motions have a lot more going on, the disc is more visible in the air (with decent camera technology) and does more interesting things than just go up and down. Though I have to say the for quite a few people watching golf regularly the short game seems to be the most exciting thing, there's tension there when the ball can slowly creep towards the hole that isn't really found in disc golf.
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