Grow the sport? No thanks.

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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JR » Tue May 29, 2012 12:39 am

The cheapest video cameras can be used in disc golf because the disc is so large but it needs proper placement of the camera person and zoom and experience of keeping the camera steady. Not so much in golf.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Wed May 30, 2012 1:24 am

JR wrote:The cheapest video cameras can be used in disc golf because the disc is so large but it needs proper placement of the camera person and zoom and experience of keeping the camera steady. Not so much in golf.


I can't wait to see a disc golf cameraman who has any understanding of the importance and nuances of lighting...and I'm still waiting...
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JR » Wed May 30, 2012 6:10 am

His name is lcgm8. Seriously Youtube kills details. Another matter is the ever improving equipment list he has and now that he just got calibration equipment he's banged his head against the wall for missing out so long. I fully expect improved imagery as a result from future videos.

I wouldn't wonder if Esa Arokki and Tuomas Rio from Finland knew more than lcgm8 they are professional video guys and both have filmed disc golf. Esa for Deep In the Game series and EO2011 where Tuomas was running tech side of the broadcast of Disc Golf Planet. I haven't seen his videos if they exist but i think he's filmed some DG bits.

Swedisc Disc Golf Promo was filmed by a pro and it shows. They spent a few days to wait for the proper light among other things.

The thing about filming a competition is you get what nature offers you. If you wanna film the whole flight often times there is one tiny spot on the hole to do it and without climbing a tree some holes are impossible to film with a single camera. Lighting and would be nice stuff have to be dropped in order to show what happens in the competition and how the scores were achieved. Or you move from sports event coverage to the realm of ad or art piece making. All have their uses and should be explored as possible avenues to improve the experience for everyone and hopefully to grow the sport.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby bergdawg » Wed May 30, 2012 6:56 am

When 2011 Worlds DVD coming out? Matter fact, when's that gay-ass chains movie coming out?
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Wed May 30, 2012 12:50 pm

JR wrote:...Lighting and would be nice stuff have to be dropped in order to show what happens in the competition and how the scores were achieved...


As a still photographer who sometimes follows disc golfers and photographs tournaments, I've learned that the only thing that matters is light. Light is what reflects from your subject to make the image. I use only natural sunlight. It is all about the angles.
And if the lighting isn't good, and I know it'll be a crappy photo as a result, I don't even bother releasing the shutter.

Disc golf video camera crews usually just follow behind players and point the lens in whatever direction the players are throwing. This produces total garbage, and some of the lighting situations I see develop as a result or this poor utilization of the camera make me cringe/wince hard. Ouch!

What you need is a cameraman who understands lighting enough to position themselves properly on the fairway and film the action according to what the lighting dictates. A good start is to simply try and maneuver so that the sun is at your back when facing your subjects. Cross-lighting can also be fun, especially in the dappled lighting you get beneath a tree canopy.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Wed May 30, 2012 12:53 pm

bergdawg wrote:When 2011 Worlds DVD coming out? Matter fact, when's that gay-ass chains movie coming out?


If you think it's gay-ass, why do you want to know?
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby bergdawg » Wed May 30, 2012 1:13 pm

JHern wrote:
bergdawg wrote:When 2011 Worlds DVD coming out? Matter fact, when's that gay-ass chains movie coming out?


If you think it's gay-ass, why do you want to know?


So, I can admire Derek's award winning work.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby TOURNEYPLAYER » Wed May 30, 2012 1:18 pm

lulz..
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JR » Wed May 30, 2012 2:09 pm

JHern wrote:
JR wrote:...Lighting and would be nice stuff have to be dropped in order to show what happens in the competition and how the scores were achieved...


As a still photographer who sometimes follows disc golfers and photographs tournaments, I've learned that the only thing that matters is light. Light is what reflects from your subject to make the image. I use only natural sunlight. It is all about the angles.
And if the lighting isn't good, and I know it'll be a crappy photo as a result, I don't even bother releasing the shutter.

Disc golf video camera crews usually just follow behind players and point the lens in whatever direction the players are throwing. This produces total garbage, and some of the lighting situations I see develop as a result or this poor utilization of the camera make me cringe/wince hard. Ouch!

What you need is a cameraman who understands lighting enough to position themselves properly on the fairway and film the action according to what the lighting dictates. A good start is to simply try and maneuver so that the sun is at your back when facing your subjects. Cross-lighting can also be fun, especially in the dappled lighting you get beneath a tree canopy.


Oh i didn't realize you were talking of the easy filming -one picture at a time. Stills are a different world to videoing. I have rarely filmed from the tee because when i'm alone the only way to get the whole flight is to be somewhere on the fairway or the edge of the fairway. I always look at the sun and if possible place myself so that the sun is at my back or obscured by trees.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Wed May 30, 2012 2:53 pm

JR wrote:...Stills are a different world to videoing...


This is only partly true. You are still fundamentally capturing light reflected from objects in a scene, which is precisely the same thing in still or video. Lighting is first and foremost, always.

JR wrote:I have rarely filmed from the tee because when i'm alone the only way to get the whole flight is to be somewhere on the fairway or the edge of the fairway. I always look at the sun and if possible place myself so that the sun is at my back or obscured by trees.


That's the way to do it, as a good first step. It's a difficult thing to always be prepared for lighting, as it changes from one hole to another, and also changes depending on the time of day (and the weather). It would be really cool if you could set up stations in advance, the day before, planning on filming certain holes at certain times (when they will be needed the following day as the card you want to film moves through the course), experimenting with lighting, finding the optimal positions, etc.. Then the next day you can go out and just move from station to station without having to think about it as much. That's what they do in top level sports, and the results are quite impressive.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Wed May 30, 2012 2:57 pm

bergdawg wrote:
JHern wrote:
bergdawg wrote:When 2011 Worlds DVD coming out? Matter fact, when's that gay-ass chains movie coming out?


If you think it's gay-ass, why do you want to know?


So, I can admire Derek's award winning work.


Well, you'll just have to wait for a while longer...Derek's life was collapsing around him over the past year, in many ways, and he had no choice other than to suddenly shift priorities to family. He'll be back again.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby bergdawg » Wed May 30, 2012 4:47 pm

Was he ever there to begin with?
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby jubuttib » Wed May 30, 2012 5:16 pm

To me the most glaring difference in professional golf broadcasts vs. all disc golf broadcasts is the sky. In disc golf videos 9/10 either the sky is over exposed and you can't see the disc if it's above the tree line, or the sky is OK and the rest of the view is underexposed, so you can't see the disc if it's below the tree line. In professional broadcasts neither ever eats away at the other to such extent that you can't see what's happening. Or at least I've yet to see it.

Even if only that aspect would be fixed I'd be happy.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JR » Wed May 30, 2012 11:18 pm

JHern wrote:
JR wrote:...Stills are a different world to videoing...


This is only partly true. You are still fundamentally capturing light reflected from objects in a scene, which is precisely the same thing in still or video. Lighting is first and foremost, always.

JR wrote:I have rarely filmed from the tee because when i'm alone the only way to get the whole flight is to be somewhere on the fairway or the edge of the fairway. I always look at the sun and if possible place myself so that the sun is at my back or obscured by trees.


That's the way to do it, as a good first step. It's a difficult thing to always be prepared for lighting, as it changes from one hole to another, and also changes depending on the time of day (and the weather). It would be really cool if you could set up stations in advance, the day before, planning on filming certain holes at certain times (when they will be needed the following day as the card you want to film moves through the course), experimenting with lighting, finding the optimal positions, etc.. Then the next day you can go out and just move from station to station without having to think about it as much. That's what they do in top level sports, and the results are quite impressive.


The time available for placing oneself and taking the shot is way different for videographers whose machines are on and need to stay steady at 15x zoom in my case for minutes at a time. Compare that to a single still per player per shot or a series of pics of the throwing motion only usually and you'll see how restricted it is for a video guy to get to a proper place and finding the spot where the sun ain't bad hopefully while being able to show the entire flight.

I always play the course myself beforehand so i can comment on the course and conditions of the course and the challenges any place has including what is the optimum placement and why and what are the downsides and throwing challenges for the next shot in adverse landing spots. While i scout out the places from which one can show the flight from start to finish. If it is even possible. If not then i'll look for the best compromise.

I've filmed with manual settings of lighting only once. That created many problems in editing the video. Something a stills guy does not need to worry about. Editing video is memory intensive and once you tax the memory too much software starts to bug out. Needing to correct things post fact in a changing lighting is labor intensive to say the least. It did produce the best colors that i've gotten out of my camera but the mistakes i made in adjusting lighting were too many and grave. And it also meant that the editor got new challenges and messed up in ways that aren't possible with automated lighting controls. Also the chances of missing shots and blood pressure levels are too high zooming in to the tee the zooming out once the disc flies then zooming out while panning in two axes while adjusting the lighting based on the background (sky vs ground) then adjusting exposure in the other direction if the disc was above horizon. Too much hassle and chances of not getting usable material if one wants to show the event shot for shot. I had to also zoom after a disc that passed me at times at the Finnish Open 2010. Compare that real time needing execution lasting for a long while then once the disc lands zooming out and turning the camera to the tee hopefully in time before the next throw leaves for four guys to taking four pictures and maybe you see why i say taking stills is easy.

How do you like these pictures? That guy has filmed as a staff member in official cameraman capacity at Tali Open for years.
http://jarih.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Tali+Open+2012/
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Grow the sport? No thanks.

Postby JHern » Thu May 31, 2012 3:32 pm

JR wrote:The time available for placing oneself and taking the shot is way different for videographers whose machines are on and need to stay steady at 15x zoom in my case for minutes at a time. Compare that to a single still per player per shot or a series of pics of the throwing motion only usually and you'll see how restricted it is for a video guy to get to a proper place and finding the spot where the sun ain't bad hopefully while being able to show the entire flight.


I'm not saying it's easy. Of course it is difficult. But that's why quality work is so valuable.

JR wrote:I've filmed with manual settings of lighting only once...


This isn't something I'd personally recommend. Video cameras usually have good dynamic control of changes in lighting, focus, etc., as the scene changes.

JR wrote:Compare that real time needing execution lasting for a long while then once the disc lands zooming out and turning the camera to the tee hopefully in time before the next throw leaves for four guys to taking four pictures and maybe you see why i say taking stills is easy.


I know what you're saying, but I still don't think there is so much difference. Usually the places I set up I can follow the disc from start to finish, if I wanted (of course there is no point in shooting stills of the disc alone).

And if taking stills were so easy, then why are so many still photographs of disc golf also completely horrible?

JR wrote:How do you like these pictures? That guy has filmed as a staff member in official cameraman capacity at Tali Open for years.
http://jarih.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Tali+Open+2012/


These are good. Some are really good, some are not quite so good, and almost in every case the lighting is the culprit. Of course, it looks like he is dumping every shot into the portfolio, instead of being more selective and only putting out the best of the best (which is what I do).

Here is a shot of Val Jenkins I took at WGE, everybody else was following the group from behind, but this meant shooting into the sun so I moved to the side on an adjacent fairway to get the proper lighting and found a much better way to frame the shot of her drive, and with much better lighting...

Image

...do I think you can achieve the same quality in video? Absolutely, yes! Is it a lot of work? Absolutely, yes! That's what the true pros do.

In Hollywood, they have a team of people surrounding the cameras, they have a person who points the camera, and person who controls the zoom, a person who controls the aperture, a person who controls the focus, a person who controls the shutter speed/exposure, a person who moves the camera itself (it is on a mobile platform), a team of grips who hold heavy and very hot lighting fixtures overhead, etc.. They work as a team and it requires intense coordination and an inconceivable amount of labor. It is part of the reason the production costs are so high. But the quality of the result is compelling, which is why they do it.

I'm not saying we should be aiming for Hollywood quality production. What I'm saying is that doing good video work is much much more than just following people around and pointing the camera in whatever direction they are throwing. The latter strategy is awful, I hope you agree.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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