Help Selecting a New Driver

[tuckerjt07]

I need help picking out a new driver. The discs I currently have are a Champion Monarch, Pro Valkyrie, Z Buzzz, and a Soft Banger-GT. I can routinely throw the Valkyrie and the Monarch ~300' and 350'-360' when I catch it perfect. The problem that I am having is that I can easily turn these discs over, I think that's the right terminology anywhere from a slight to severe turn to the right (RHBH thrower). As a result of this I am thinking that I need something more overstable and was hoping for some advice in picking out my next driver.

[JR]

Hi and welcome. Everyone thinks like that when they begin their career not knowing how many things can go wrong in the thrower part of the equation. Getting a clean throw is much more difficult than one would expect from throwing overstable discs that mask technique flaws. You're in the lucky position of having discs right now that won't mask user errors that much. The description you gave indicates that it is not just the discs fault there is something in your form that makes the discs turn over more than they should. Besides a Valkyrie is designed to flip so for a flat shot it needs initial hyzer angle from which it will flip to flat. That is straightest flight path and best for tunnels.

While adding a more overstable disc will help scores in the short term adding a level of protection against some user errors it usually also slows down the level of progress in throwing form. So my advice is to get a beefier disc that will help during rounds and training on an empty field first with your current discs. The perfect match overstable disc is impossible to pick for the long term because nobody can predict how cleaning up your form will add distance and which flight paths the discs will take.

Normally for a clean toss 300' suggests sticking to mids or a Leopard Opto River at most with new Star Sidewinders in between. The River suffers the least but even that flips easily without clean form. For a quick fix on the course for the short term Champion Teebird or DX Gazelle depending on which grip and tackiness you prefer.

The best advice i can give you is to post a video of your throwing to the video critique section after reading the 300' thread and training with advice in there.

[jubuttib]

Do you mean you're just barely turning them over or that they're turning over so much they're hard to control? With the Champ Monarch and Pro Valkyrie I'm not terribly surprised you can turn them over, though even they shouldn't turn on a 300' throw unless they're very beat, but the Z Buzzz tells another tale. Unless it's very beaten, what is happening most likely is that you're OATing (off axis torque) them over. A Z Buzzz in good nick should be able to take +300' with only a little turn. Getting a more overstable driver would just mask the problem and not fix it, better way to go about things is to figure out what in your form is causing the discs to flip over and fixing it.

If you want to get a new disc, I suggest a Z or even an X Comet. With a clean throw they can handle way over 300' of power going dead nuts straight from a flat release, but if your form is off they're going to turn violently. One of the best diagnostics discs out there, and everyone should have one for training purposes.

[JR]

A good flat topped high outer edge Z Buzzz won't turn at all at 300'. Of course with that power the Valk thrown cleanly will fly 370' or more. Even more with an s-curve.

[tuckerjt07]

Sorry I guess left that first post a little unclear. I can throw the Buzzz without turning it over. It is my two drivers that I am having trouble with. If I take it nice and easy I can throw them straight or with a slight S-curve. It's just when I try to add more distance that I flip them. When this happens they fly ~350' but at about 150'-200' they snap over and go hard right, but don't knife into the ground. I feel like at about 60-70% power is all that I can use when throwing them. Anything more causes the Valkyrie and the Monarch to flip, but I must admit I really have not tried to rip the Buzzz all that much. I will try to get a video and see if that can help my problem as well.

[InvaderMirO]

considering you flip them very easy on your harder throws it leads me to believe there are 2 possible issues.d

1 : your throws are clean but your valk/monarch are beat to hell and back or are warped , this would alter the flight path and make them as understable as you make them sound.
2 : your throws are NOT clean and you are putting OAT(off-axis torque) on your throws which is causing them to flip over in their flight.
a. this doesn't show as much when you throw more slowly because you are likely throwing with better form (much easier when slowing it down) or back to number 1 where when you throw those beat discs a bit slower they don't flip as much.

i had an issue similar to what i think your doing when i started.
i would throw my putters and midrange very clean ( because i didn't need full power and you will know INSTANTLY when your form sucks if you try to drive with a putter )
i would however throw my drives with terrible form , mostly because i was trying to use 120% of my power and also because i used very overstable discs for a long time which masked the errors in my throw.
i remedied this issue by simply playing with just putters and midrange for a week. you will quickly learn that if you want max distance out of that buzz that you can't exactly put 100% of your strength behind it, and not because the disc can't handle it but because you will likely have errors in your form. However, if you keep with it eventually you will be able to get that buzz out over 250-300 and have it fly smoothly from start to finish. at this point you pull your drivers back out, repeat the same throw and then bask in the awesomeness of your new sexy drives.

[slowarm]

i had an issue similar to what i think your doing when i started.
i would throw my putters and midrange very clean ( because i didn't need full power and you will know INSTANTLY when your form sucks if you try to drive with a putter )
i would however throw my drives with terrible form , mostly because i was trying to use 120% of my power and also because i used very overstable discs for a long time which masked the errors in my throw.
i remedied this issue by simply playing with just putters and midrange for a week. you will quickly learn that if you want max distance out of that buzz that you can't exactly put 100% of your strength behind it, and not because the disc can't handle it but because you will likely have errors in your form. However, if you keep with it eventually you will be able to get that buzz out over 250-300 and have it fly smoothly from start to finish. at this point you pull your drivers back out, repeat the same throw and then bask in the awesomeness of your new sexy drives.

+1

(...even if your form isn't the reason, a week or two with putters and mids won't hurt you.)

[AcesAZ]

Try a Pro Innova SL or ORC if your discs are pretty worn.

[discpunk26]

You may want to check the weight of your monarch and valk, if they are under 170 you may want to try heavier ones. Or even better plastic for the valk, something champ or star could be all you need. I would go with that before looking for a new mold.

[tuckerjt07]

The valkyrie is 174 and the monarch is 169. I've been playing with just my buzz and putter and this is what I have found. I can routinely throw the buzz 200-250 feet on a straight line and the same with the putter only shorter. However, I am still turning the drivers over quite a bit. Disc flies straight for 50ish feet snaps over goes right and doesn't come back hardly at all if any. Could it just be mental, and how do you tell how beat in your discs are?

[AcesAZ]

If they look beat. Im guessing they are not. Both those discs are designed to turn over and fade a little at the end, the Monarch alot and the Valkerie a bit less. I think you probably have some technique issues but if you want to try something more stable you can try a Innova Orc, SL or a Champion Beast. At 350 power range all these should be stable enough. Does you disc have any wobble out of your hand (initial part of flight)?

[tuckerjt07]

No wobble at all. I get a of thoomp sound on the release, not really a snap sound but lower in pitch. The Monarch actually flies more stable than my Valkyrie, I can hyzer flip it and get it to hold a straight line until it fades off at the end. I can hold the Valkyrie between 6-7 O'Clock (RHBH) and it will flip up and still turn right before it fades at the end.

[JR]

The Monarchs are designed to fly at much higher speeds and the Valk powers down well to your distances. What you describe comes from off axis torque because the Monarch doesn't get up to it's designed speed and has more fade it can flex out of the anny unlike the Valk. Make a similar form error at 400'+ power and the Monarch dives to the ground too. Your task is to find the source of the off axis torque first before doing anything else. It must go or your development as a thrower is stalled and you reinforce bad habits making improvement after the OAT cure harder because you must break bad habits. That is difficult.

Wrist roll clockwise, shoulder socket doing the same, body or knee, hips or shoulders tilting to the right, final step planting to the left of the line you are running on or dropping the arm lower than the pull line are the usual suspects. Do you pull close to the chest and do you start the arm motion only after the final step has landed? You should. A video would help in determining the source of problems and giving tips on how to get rid of it if the above checklist doesn't help.

[tuckerjt07]

Here is a playlist of some videos I took while doing field work. Most of the drives were 300'-350' based on the measurements on the course.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4F7CE19A584597DB
Number 650 gives a good example of the way that the valk flies.
If you could take a look and tear me down so that I can improve I would be grateful.

[JR]

That throw had the arm follow through low and the passing of the torso high=anhyzer all the way and the disc followed the angle so at least the disc did not magnify the anny. Depending on which kind of Valk it is it is ok performance or underpowered throwing. Can't really tell but a clean flat release would be more telling. See this throw was higher than you use for best distance with a line drive at your power so the disc acts more HSS thanks to slowing down faster climbing at a faster than normal rate. Looking at the reply to vid 647 in the video critique section should help more. I can't tell if i have access to the net in the next days so replies to follow up questions may take a while.