Starter discs for Ultimate players

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Postby J-Man » Tue May 20, 2008 10:01 pm

I usually recommend a Pro D Sratus, its under-stable nature mimics that of a 175 Ultra-Star, and with no bead to speak of it makes for an easy transition from a fan to a power grip. For a putter...Soft Magnet of course.
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Postby TheUberDork » Wed May 21, 2008 11:05 am

DX Jaguar
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Postby J-Man » Wed May 21, 2008 12:21 pm

I still have a couple Jags, cool disc, like throwing a banquet plate.
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Postby marmoset » Thu May 22, 2008 6:11 am

Jags are HUUUGE. My friend has one that we call the MOTHER SHIP whenever he pulls it out; then I make the Jetson's UFO noise.
You can fit another disc inside of it- we accidentally got a Kite stuck in ours for a little while.
But it sure is a fun disc to throw!
Lotsa snap and it just glides forever.
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Postby tim » Wed May 28, 2008 4:01 pm

An Innova Aero, no question -- they fly more like Ultimate discs than anything other midrange. I come from an ultimate background, and still play more ultimate than I do disc golf, and that would be my first recommendation.

For a putter, get them a Sonic (or just encourage them to use the Aero to putt -- it works pretty well for that).

To move them into true golf discs, I'd go with an Innova Star TL or a Gateway E-plastic Assassin -- both are similar discs that have a fair amount of glide and will go 350 pretty easily with decent form. The Assassin will probably be more natural for them, since the Assassin has amazing glide without huge power going into it.

If they are mostly going to throw flicks and want discs that are really easy to flick well ultimate-style starting out, I'd recommend a DX Shark (high 170s) as a midrange (somehow more natural to me than a Roc for Ultimate-style throws), a DX Birdie, and probably an ESP XL for a driver.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby ribbyjazz » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:50 am

I am a long time club ultimate player that has been playing disc golf casually off and on for the last 7 years. Just in the last few months have I taken the time to learn all the disc golf lingo and I have been experimenting heavily trying to find discs that use my ultra star skill set since it is so much better than my ability to throw disc golf discs in general. I have been playing on average 5 times a week for the last 3 months. I found this forum searching for more answers. I am not a great disc golf player or expert on anything disc golf. I hope my experience below helps the conversation.

Here are my main findings from the last few months. Below is how I got to these ideas.

1. Fairway drivers are plenty. I throw them farther than high speed drivers.
2. For me and some other ultimate players I know who take disc golf seriously, an opposite correlation between turn and fade (innova ratings) is a good thing. (-1 1, -2 2, -3 3, etc.)
3. The Dart and specifically the Echo star dart has been the perfect disc for me as an Ultimate player on my backhands as well as being decent for forehands, hammers, thummers, and scoobers, as well.
4. The Polecat will make any ultimate player happy about their forehand approach shots.

Any disc ratings I used came from Innova or from the free chart on this page.

http://www.altitudediscgolf.com/servlet/StoreFront

I specialize in pulling, or kicking off, in ultimate. This is the one throw where you do not have a pivot foot and are allowed to run into the throw. One advantage to this is that ultimate players who pull usually have a great x step and use their legs well for power. I want to mention this because I think that I have more power because of that experience and not all new disc golf players who play ultimate will have that so it may or may not negate my experience below.

I was reading another forum last week where a top player here in Colorado was talking about how so many players throw discs that are way too over-stable and fast and that they compensate with bad form. I took this to heart and had amazing results.

I went to the store to buy a TL+, 7 6 0 1, and the salesman talked me into getting a Discmania Jackal, 7 6 -1 1, instead. I can throw this disc really far, farther than any other disc in my bag including my blizzard Boss, my Katana, my Wahoo, and my Valk.

Discs that are opposites in Turn and Fade work great for me. For example Katana -3 3, Wahoo -2 2, Valkyrie -2 2, , Jackal -1 1, Skeeter -1 1, Dart 0 0, , Birdie 0 0, Polecat 0 0. That is basically my bag right now plus a Predator for spike hyzers and a Hydra.

In the past and currently when I have tried discs that do not follow the opposites rule I have been disappointed. So far my current Discmania Craze -1 2, my Scout 0 1, and in the past Surge-1 3, Wraith -1 3, Express -3 1, Stratus -3 1, Roc 0 3, Comet -2 1, Coyote 0 1, and Magnet -1 2 have all been discs I used and eventually sold or traded or am thinking about selling or trading.

This may just be me but I think that there is something to it and that the general rule of thumb may be helpful. Just in the last week have I realized this and I wish that I would have sooner.

I also noticed that going down in speed with similar characteristics otherwise has increased my distance. First it was from Katana to Valk and then Valk to Jackal. That is going from Speed 13 to speed 9 to speed 7. Each time I had a significant gain in distance.

As far as my favorite disc for ultimate throws that are not big drives I have two. First my Dart. I locked myself out of the house by accident the other day and only had my Dart. My buddy picked me up to play, he is also an ultimate player and loves his XD, -1 1, which he uses for 75% of his game using a Valk the other 25%. I went out and shot 5 down, my best score of the summer, using only my Dart. I can throw the Dart, in 0 wind conditions, as far as most of my drivers. As I played with it more I was turning over my soft Dart and bought an Echo Star Dart which did the trick as it is just a little bit more stable. For backhands this is my disc of choice. It's low speed, 3, and moderate glide, 4 seem to mimic an ultrastar more than anything else I have ever thrown except that I can throw it way way farther than my ultrastar, way over 300 with accuracy and control.

For shorter midrange shots I always want to throw a forehand because it feels so much more natural to me as an ultimate player as it is my most accurate throw with an ultrastar. This is true for most experienced ultimate players I know. Until today I was throwing it with my Dart and it was ok but not anything to write home about. I bought a polecat and wow my game just changed drastically. It comes out of my hand and does exactly what I think it will do. Halfway through my round today I threw an approach shot from about 100 and stuck it for a birdie. After 7 years I finally found a good disc to mimic an ultra stars flight on a forehand.

I am still trying to find a disc that I can throw far with a forehand. The Polecat is perfect for the shorter stuff. The usual over stable recommendations for forehand drivers do not work for me. Let me know if anyone has any recommendations for discs that will work well with the muscle memory I have from throwing forehand ultra stars for distance.

Thanks to everyone that posts on here. I am leaning a ton!
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby JR » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:03 am

Welcome your experiences are interesting and sometimes surprising. The bad thing about the Polecat is that it breaks in fast to flippier but for you it may be a good thing too. Now the great news: The Ultra-Star is PDGA competition approved disc so theoretically you could win the disc golf world championship using only that. In practice not. The Coyote not suiting you seems odd because you can handle a beefier disc in the FD. The Comet has been the traditional suggestion for a transition disc so the fact that you are selling it seems odd. Why didn't you like the Comet and the Coyote? There are other lid type disc golf discs that could work great for you. I'm not the only one that puts the Rattler on top of that list. Some like Sonics and Whitlers too. Sonics vary and Whitlers are so soft that driving with them is problematic to say the least. I don't wonder the Dart results at all. What i do wonder is that the FD is so long for you considering how far you toss the Dart. Usually Dart 300' should mean at least 370' with faster discs provided you can optimize their flight. And that may be a form issue transitioning from Ultimate to disc golf. Drivers don't fly nose up they stall, The less fade you have in a disc and the slower it is the more it is immune to nose up throws. Forget about it with fast drivers that is a different world. I'd search this forum for "nose down" advice. Also at least the grip article on the main page deals partially with those issues.

Other long for slow speed low speed not terribly nose angle sensitive discs are Rivers and Squalls. The River is straighter for me than the FD and very long. Squall is slower than the FD thus the most suited for straight shots and the least nose angle sensitive disc above the speed and distance of the Dart and the Wedge. Wedge is slightly faster longer putter than the Dart. It is so thin that it may be problematic to grip but often sidearms benefit from thin discs. Compare that to the Ultra-Star :-D

Welcome to the other disc addiction :-) The club champion in my club has a long background in other discs sports than disc golf including former coach of Finnish ladies Ultimate national team. He has great finesse in his form and that can be attributed to his Ultimate background. He likes to approach with airbounces. He was ahead of a few disc golf world champions in Tali Open 2010 in the finals for a while leading the event but crashed in the end. Playing in the group of another local player European Champion Ville Piippo was not nice nerves wise so Doss and Jenkins passed him from the second card. Avery Jenkins shooting course record. Ville put in the screws attacking hard. You can watch the event on Youtube channel lcgm8. Brodie Smith has a video with him and Avery goofing off on his channel. I assume you know who Brodie is.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby Wordgie » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:16 am

When I first started, I had better results with a Pro D Buzzz than I did with a DX Roc.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby ribbyjazz » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:22 am

That is all so helpful. Definitely some ahha moments.

I think with the Comet I just kept flipping it. Everything I wanted to do with it I could do better with my Dart so I got rid of the Comet. The Coyote I liked more and lost it in the water at some point and replaced it with something else.

I think a lot of my inconsistency with midrange discs is my form. I often feel uncomfortable throwing mid’s at mid ranges. I feel fine running into something and ripping it but a nice controlled easy backhand with a midrange disc never felt that great. I’m sure that is a problem you don’t hear very often. I think that is why I like the Dart. I have to put more into it, which lends itself more to my practice at pulling an ultrastar. I throw it hard but it doesn’t go too far.

That is also why I am looking to find a disc I can throw forehand with accuracy but farther than my Polecat. I feel way more comfortable throwing a forehand at that distance for some reason. The Polecat I can throw forehand under 200 and feel good about it. I would like to find something I can throw over 200 like that to reach pins that are straight out and to the right behind an obstacle.

I think that I have just reached the point where instead of trying to find discs that fit my current skill set I need to refine my technique so that I have a more diverse skill set. The nose up, grip, and snap subjects are my first courses of study. I can’t throw any of my discs very far forehand so a few lessons in that will probably change things really fast.

I think the reason that I throw the fairway driver so much better is that I have a lot of power from my legs and arm but not a lot of snap. I have pro players tell me I have a big arm but I can’t even begin to throw the more over-stable drivers they are using while seeming to put a lot less effort into their throws than I do. I think that with what you said, less fade and slower = more immune to nose up problems, is the key to me liking the Jackal so much and throwing it farther than my higher speed drivers. I think I am maxing out my fd and putter while way underthrowing my drivers based on their potential.

How much more distance can I expect from my high-speed drivers if I increase my snap? Is that likely the biggest reason that I am throwing the fd farther than the faster drivers?

I will read the form posts soon so that may answer my question. Thank you for reading my posts and helping me out.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby JR » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:51 am

Not knowing your form it is guesswork what diminishes the power. Too lose a grip. Wrist flapping back without resistance, wrist not snapping forward with also active
extension not just the result of the previous motions and the direction change of the arm etc.

Comet is very intolerant to errors. Throwing it like the Ultra-Star not like a driver helps with it.

Buzzz is a great sidearm mid. Backhand too.

Running at a target gives you momentum toward the correct direction. A quick late arm acceleration of the arm aka latter part of snap gives the arm a physical feedback as the weight of the disc presses against the fingers. That feeling of weight can be used as a directly back to front aiming mechanism at the target. People that do that often get a jump in accuracy.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby ribbyjazz » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:38 pm

I think it is the wrist flapping idea along with the acceleration. I just rip through as hard as I can through the entire motion not with the acceleration at the end that you mentioned.

When pulling my Ultrastar I usually throw really inside out or hyzer in DG terms. Along with that I release high and turn my wrist inward with my thumb pointing down at the end of the throw. With an ultra star I get a ton of loft and glide and the disc flips up flat before falling left.

I do not do this with disc golf discs unless I am throwing a big hyzer which I am usually very accurate with. With normal drives trying to throw flat, or with a little anny, or even trying to hyzer flip I have been very inconsistent. I think my weight transfer and arm motion are usually good but I realize that I am not very aware of the release itself.

I don't get much snap because I just let my wrist follow through. I think sometimes I get more snap as a result of my powerful approach rather than a focus on the late arm acceleration and wrist control. When I do that I turn stuff over big time. A couple weeks ago I thru my Blizzard Boss farther than I have ever thrown a disc by around 75 feet. I turned it over so bad that it went way over the train tracks at Edora before it faded back. It was nowhere near the hole and it was out of bounds but I remember wondering what I did to make it flip like that and I couldn't figure it out. It is all starting to make sense now. I can't wait to go out and experiment some more. Thanks again.
Last edited by ribbyjazz on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby money 21 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:40 pm

mako
glide
zeppelin
eclipse
Summit, money, vp, flying squirrel, ibex, obex, sharp shooter #2, trak, ascent, seacert weapon, vulture, unlace, lace, olace, solace, Prometheus
i have seen monkey sh!t fights at the zoo more orginized then this.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby Flipflat » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:11 pm

Might be a good idea to post a video of your form in the video critique forum, might pick up some good advice. I'm kind of curious to see your throw.

As far as disc suggestions, you probably would be comfortable with a lid- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17697&hilit=the+lid+thread

Also, try a Discraft Comet- neutral mid that can go super far with good technique.
I would like your X-Wasps, please.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby JR » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:31 am

I second the idea of the Mako for Ultimate players for size and shape friendliness and more user error tolerance than the Comet.

In order to get more spin and stability (straightness) to a disc one must stop the wrist and pinch hard with the fingers to make the disc pivot out of the palm so that when the disc rips out automatically (you aren't opening the fingers but are holding on for dear life) the last finger in contact with the disc is at the rear of the disc. If 12 o'clock is the basket on a line drive the last finger contact should be around 4.30 maybe even more. That creates over 30 revs per second and as a bonus also improves the mass/power ratio because in an ideal world the only thing moving is the disc. 175 grams is less than the disc plus the thrower. So there is a tremendous acceleration. Of course nobody is that powerful that they could stop instantaneously. Stopping the wrist does not meant not having a follow through. In fact you can rev up the disc even more by shoulder rotation (left forward right back) and pulling the elbow back from straightish to more bent. This way during the disc pivot the fingers reach the rear of the disc faster leading to more spin and speed. You can throw farther by first throwing forward finishing up a little tug backwards. Crazy ain't it and certainly not intuitive?

Disc golfers also need to turn the thumb down in the follow through. Hyzer flips with understable low fade discs make the straightest finishing flights. Leopard is the straightest finishing driver i've found. Next harder finishing discs in oreder are Sidewinder and River then Beast/Roadrunner then the straightest variants of S TDs and some of the wildly varying Flows.

Did the Boss miss right? If so it was probably a grip lock. Something that's easier to have with light discs. Pulling he arm in a straight line close to the left and right pec and not starting the arm pull before the final step lands will help in eliminating that problem.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Starter discs for Ultimate players

Postby ribbyjazz » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:55 am

I was just watching the masterbeato driving video and definitely think that the the disc being close to my chest will help a lot. An ultra star is so much bigger that with it I cannot bring the disc as close in just due to its size. Moving to disc golf discs I never changed this. I think that will be an easy fix. I like on the video how he breaks down practicing the different parts of the throw. Besides pulling the disc through close to the chest and punching through I am good at the rest of the form. You were dead on with your diagnosis. Grip lock was the problem.

Thanks!
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