Worlds Payout

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Worlds Payout

Postby scoot_er » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:02 pm

Do you think the payout at Worlds is adequate?

Yes
No
Maybe So
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby scoot_er » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:03 pm

Also nice to see this place it still holding strong.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby Working Stiff » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:28 pm

All I've heard was bitching about courses. I have not heard anyone bitching about the payout yet. What did you think?
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby scoot_er » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:45 pm

I have only played Renny (wished I had gone to Hornet's) so I cannot attest to the courses being bad.......although I would assume the hardest placements were not used to accommodate all divisions...which probably upset the Open guys.

As to my opinion on the payout the entry was $225 with $200 to the payout......the PDGA calculated this at 126% although at the full entry it is more like 110%

Regardless, even using the 126% listed payout my concern is to the fact that 125% used to be the minimum payout for B-tiers before the PDGA set a $500 flat added cash minimum/ With that said I think this event should have a payout % that is higher than what we used to expect of our B-tiers.

I made over $1200 in merch in 2 AM Worlds yet in three mid-cashing Pro Worlds I have made less than $800 and the last time received exactly what I payed to get in for finishing 20 spots into the cash.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:46 pm

Value is determined by the market. Doctors are not paid more than teachers because some law requires it. Rock stars are not paid more than child care workers based on some abstract concept of skill or societal benefits. Something, whether that something is a thing or a service or an idea or an hour of your time is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.

When society places greater value on disc golf skills they will be better compensated. Until then they will not be.

For greater payouts to happen the money must come from somewhere. Business has the opportunity to invest in the game but has chosen not to do so to any meaningful level. If business is unwilling to invest in disc golf voluntarily (video rights, advertising dollars, etc.) then someone must be taxed. So who should be taxed and how much should they pay?

For the PDGA to tax competitors and add it to the purse is an idea advocated by a top few of the Pros. Sure because it will help them and take money from everyone else. Perhaps someone can explain how paying a tax to the already best compensated players will benefit those paying the tax.

Do I have a problem with Worlds Payout? Not at all. Truthfully it is overgenerous. If the thousands and thousands and thousands of uncompensated volunteer hours were calculated into the payout, the entry fees would skyrocket and the payout would be applause and nothing more.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby Working Stiff » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:51 pm

Really, that is what it comes down to. I'm pretty sure all the money that was available for the payout was put into the payout. Would it be nice if the payouts were higher? Sure, I guess that would be cool. Where is the money going to come from?
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby scoot_er » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:56 pm

My $1 per Pdga entry idea......avg player pays $3 while the Nikkos and Borgs of the World pay $40............every dollar goes into a fund which goes straight to Worlds

Kind of like a few bucks going to a series finale which in this case in the World Championship.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby Working Stiff » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:29 pm

Eh, why don't they just put a box on the renewal form where you can donate to the World's payout if you give a crap? That way the members who find value in the World's payout are encouraged to do so and people who couldn't care less wouldn't have to. You would get a good idea about how popular the idea is by the participation.
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:33 pm

Does the PDGA take a $1 from every person paying to be part of the PDGA and putting it towards worlds? I would start there and maybe move on to pdga entry fees later. People complain about payouts across the board so I don't know if taking from smaller tourneys is the answer.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby juju » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:35 pm

Who gives a crap if these guys make $5K or $25K if they win worlds? Not me....I'm keeping my dollar.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby circleStamPooPlate » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:14 pm

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#pdga --> mine courses --> natural resources --> increase #investment

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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby scoot_er » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:53 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:Value is determined by the market. Doctors are not paid more than teachers because some law requires it. Rock stars are not paid more than child care workers based on some abstract concept of skill or societal benefits. Something, whether that something is a thing or a service or an idea or an hour of your time is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.

When society places greater value on disc golf skills they will be better compensated. Until then they will not be.

For greater payouts to happen the money must come from somewhere. Business has the opportunity to invest in the game but has chosen not to do so to any meaningful level. If business is unwilling to invest in disc golf voluntarily (video rights, advertising dollars, etc.) then someone must be taxed. So who should be taxed and how much should they pay?

For the PDGA to tax competitors and add it to the purse is an idea advocated by a top few of the Pros. Sure because it will help them and take money from everyone else. Perhaps someone can explain how paying a tax to the already best compensated players will benefit those paying the tax.

Do I have a problem with Worlds Payout? Not at all. Truthfully it is overgenerous. If the thousands and thousands and thousands of uncompensated volunteer hours were calculated into the payout, the entry fees would skyrocket and the payout would be applause and nothing more.



Overgenerous in the Age protected division for sure.....1st in MPM is better than 2nd in Open????

1020 gets you $1000 in MPM ....and would get $410 in MPO which is $200 less than you in MPG shooting 30pts per round lower....no wonder you are fine with the payout.

It takes 1040 in MPO to get $1000 in MPO (with a $200+ entry)


MPO also pays less for last cash by $50 than all other divisions....to the last 8 players which means you can be 8 spots into the cash and get less than last cash in any other division.

Sad to see players having to shoot 1015 golf to get their entry fee back in Open
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby scoot_er » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:58 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:Does the PDGA take a $1 from every person paying to be part of the PDGA and putting it towards worlds? I would start there and maybe move on to pdga entry fees later. People complain about payouts across the board so I don't know if taking from smaller tourneys is the answer.


Yes but I think that actually is worse for the avg player compared to the Pros....if the avg person plays 2-3 events it isn't much difference except those who play a lot of tournaments pay in more......yet like I have said numerous times they also are more likely to attend the World championships.


BTW I assume Mark agrees with me taking $800 in Discraft Merch in 2005 and another $600 the year before as an am with a $90 and $110 entry yet from 07-09' shooting 1015 golf got me less than a $100 return on my entry.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:26 pm

scoot_er wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:Value is determined by the market. Doctors are not paid more than teachers because some law requires it. Rock stars are not paid more than child care workers based on some abstract concept of skill or societal benefits. Something, whether that something is a thing or a service or an idea or an hour of your time is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.

When society places greater value on disc golf skills they will be better compensated. Until then they will not be.

For greater payouts to happen the money must come from somewhere. Business has the opportunity to invest in the game but has chosen not to do so to any meaningful level. If business is unwilling to invest in disc golf voluntarily (video rights, advertising dollars, etc.) then someone must be taxed. So who should be taxed and how much should they pay?

For the PDGA to tax competitors and add it to the purse is an idea advocated by a top few of the Pros. Sure because it will help them and take money from everyone else. Perhaps someone can explain how paying a tax to the already best compensated players will benefit those paying the tax.

Do I have a problem with Worlds Payout? Not at all. Truthfully it is overgenerous. If the thousands and thousands and thousands of uncompensated volunteer hours were calculated into the payout, the entry fees would skyrocket and the payout would be applause and nothing more.



Overgenerous in the Age protected division for sure.....1st in MPM is better than 2nd in Open????

1020 gets you $1000 in MPM ....and would get $410 in MPO which is $200 less than you in MPG shooting 30pts per round lower....no wonder you are fine with the payout.

It takes 1040 in MPO to get $1000 in MPO (with a $200+ entry)


MPO also pays less for last cash by $50 than all other divisions....to the last 8 players which means you can be 8 spots into the cash and get less than last cash in any other division.

Sad to see players having to shoot 1015 golf to get their entry fee back in Open


Looking at raw numbers can be a bit deceiving. While a 1000 rated round is a 1000 rated round no matter who shoots it, the level of excellence varies as athletes get older. My division is filled with former World Champs. The fact that none of them is 1030 rated is not due to lack of desire or effort or skill. Evidently I averaged 990 for the tournament and finished in 10th place (I didn't do the math but that is what I was told it worked out to). That may not sound like much to a young hot shot Pro but come back when you are 57 years old and tell me how easy that is.

I don't rate a tournament based on how much money they add to my division. Actually I could care less what the payout schedule looks like. I know my own skills and those of my division and live for the battle.

For those who view disc golf as a job and rate their job satisfaction by their income level, well, they are destined to be disappointed. In our lifetimes disc golf will remain a great hobby but a poor paying profession. Snatching a few more bucks from the Amateurs won't change that formula.
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Re: Worlds Payout

Postby Steady 26542 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:53 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:Looking at raw numbers can be a bit deceiving. While a 1000 rated round is a 1000 rated round no matter who shoots it, the level of excellence varies as athletes get older. My division is filled with former World Champs. The fact that none of them is 1030 rated is not due to lack of desire or effort or skill. Evidently I averaged 990 for the tournament and finished in 10th place (I didn't do the math but that is what I was told it worked out to). That may not sound like much to a young hot shot Pro but come back when you are 57 years old and tell me how easy that is.

I don't rate a tournament based on how much money they add to my division. Actually I could care less what the payout schedule looks like. I know my own skills and those of my division and live for the battle.

For those who view disc golf as a job and rate their job satisfaction by their income level, well, they are destined to be disappointed. In our lifetimes disc golf will remain a great hobby but a poor paying profession. Snatching a few more bucks from the Amateurs won't change that formula.

Agreed on all counts. But I'm 58 so that is to be expected. Congrats Mark, for your 10th place finish at 57!! 8) That is a major victory! I will be playing Senior GM in two years! I hope my body can hold together until then. :lol:
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