The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby niq » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:43 am

So I went to a football field for testing yesterday... Came back frustrated and dejected. I seemed to have lost about 50' of distance because i'm throwing all my drivers nose up now. Also, everything seems to be slipping right around the apex. The nose up I can deal with, but the slipping I'm not sure what to do. THEN, I woke up this morning and remembered the lesson from the fake grip, if you timing is off, it will slip. Am I on the right track here? Do I need to be feeling the weight before the apex so I can apply the last bit of acceleration going into the apex? (I've been trying to get my arm up to about 80% speed before the apex and then trying to hit 100 going into, and through, the apex). Maybe that last little burst without "feeling the weight" is what's messing me up?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:24 pm

The hand moves from left to right passively and once it starts to you should add to that with muscles. In order to maximize the speed of the disc pivoting between the thumb and the index finger the momentum created by earlier movements of the whole of the body the torch needs to passed on to the next guy in the relay. Because the kinetic energy created thus far will not disappear it will just find the path of least resistance to where to go. The energy tries to move in a straight line unless there is another force vector misaligning the shot. That is the background for why the wrist needs to be stopped abruptly to allow the disc pivot to start maximally fast.

If you hit the arm to a wall so that the disc can pivot freely around the corner of that wall and you had enough grip strength to pivot fully you would achieve maximum efficiency of the transfer of kinetic energy into the disc. It would not be as efficient if the wrist were moving because then you'd add the mass of the hand to be moved around by the created energy. Furthermore; the vectors of movements would not rotate the disc as efficiently. The disc is rotated in two ways. In the arm hitting the wall scenario the disc would rotate passively from the momentum alone. There is another way to add rotational speed to the disc which is pulling back the right shoulder toward the rear right of the tee and rebending the elbow pulling the forearm back. If you allowed the wrist to flap around freely to the right it would not be pulling the outside edge of the disc in a rotational manner. Reducing both rotational and linear back to front speed of the disc.

Ain't it crazy how you add speed to the disc by pulling the arm away from the target? Counter intuitive to say the least.

Regarding timing of the pinch it takes time to get the command from the mind to reach the arm so the arm has moved a lot before the finger pinch starts. There is a reflex for resisting dropping things from your hand that allows you to pinch harder than you could do consciously. It doesn't happen to me all the time quite the opposite so i try to just learn and automate the pinch otherwise. By anticipating when to send the command to pinch. That has to be learned by yourself because people have different neural path speeds and muscle speeds so you need to play with timings. Slips to the left indicate that you need to pinch earlier, harder or both. I can't speak for others because i've had surgery and still have pinched nerves and weaker signals going to muscles but if i wait for the weight of the disc pivot i'm usually late in applying pinch power unless the anti dropping reflex kicks in. When it does there is a chance of throwing farther and getting the disc to squeeze the finger print area partially into a ditch. I had about two millimeters wide and one and a half deep depression for the width of my index finger finger print area in a previous distance record toss for about a minute. The depression was gone completely after two minutes. It stung but in a good way because i knew i maximized by pinch.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby niq » Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:01 pm

So I've been experimenting with a backhand fake grip, just getting a feel for the weight of the disc. Then try to really concentrate on the weight of the disc with a full reach back and power grip, all the way across my chest with a really relaxed arm. There's a a spot somewhere around your right pec, maybe just passed your right pec. It kind of feels like the disc is falling into a little pothole on it's path across your chest and towards the target, where your wrist bends closed from neutral (the momentum and weight of the disc seem to cause it). I've been waiting to hit this little "pothole" (I think this is BW's "apex") to wait until I apply any power at all to my throw. I've been getting a lot of 380 to 400 footer's. I think I would get more of my throw's into the 400's but i'm not really used to compensating for the extra velocity (discs that weren't flippy have some flip now). Does this sound like I'm heading down the right path? I can definitely see improvements in my throws, and feel like it takes much less energy, but I just want to make sure i'm not heading down the road of bad habits...
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:08 am

There's a a spot somewhere around your right pec, maybe just passed your right pec. It kind of feels like the disc is falling into a little pothole on it's path across your chest and towards the target, where your wrist bends closed from neutral (the momentum and weight of the disc seem to cause it). I've been waiting to hit this little "pothole" (I think this is BW's "apex") to wait until I apply any power at all to my throw. I've been getting a lot of 380 to 400 footer's.


I refer to this point as the "power pocket."

you are correct in delaying your "active" pull until the disc reaches this point. the earlier parts of the throw basically act as a guide to reach this point and you unload from this point.

in order to build power you can do two things:
1. try to get as far forward into the pocket before unloading. e.g. you will have more power if you are 12" past your body into the pocket before unloading than if you are 2" past your body.
2. make sure you bring the head of the hammer (outer edge of the disc) around during your extension. ideal position is where the head of the hammer is pointing towards the target (your hand will be at around a 4 o'clock orientation).
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby discraft » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:07 am

Feeling leverage now by getting more on top of the disc with a lower pull line. I can get deep in the power pocket now before unloading. I was still pulling to early before.

I had to move the disc off the seam before I got the feeling (More of the hand on top of the disc). This created a lower pull line on its own.

Combining the leverage to the hammer pound was the key for me. The hammer pound showed me how it is more of a sling the disc.

Hitting 400' now. Very happy with that since I am a small old guy.(125pounds,43years old). Not adding power to wrist extension yet. I am sure that will add distance when i figure that out.

Thanks BLAKE and everyone that helps on this site.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:32 pm

sweet. that's good feedback to hear.

i've found similar things to be true... such as hand more on top of the disc, needing to be familiar w/ the hammer pound before it works, etc.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby douglas78 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:06 pm

Right below my first knuckle along the side of my index finger is getting really raw from starting the drills. I do feel the "feeling" of whats suppose to be going on, but do I stop after the rawness starts to get intense and resume the next day to let the callus come? I've got the first three drills down. I've been repeating them. :wink:
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:26 pm

Callouses take a long time to heal so it is better to switch to other training and using sports tape. The skin will get tougher eventually and it happens faster when you push it to a little raw and do it again the next time instead of needing to take a break. Staying healthy gives you more training session and faster development elsewhere too.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:27 am

Right below my first knuckle along the side of my index finger is getting really raw from starting the drills. I do feel the "feeling" of whats suppose to be going on, but do I stop after the rawness starts to get intense and resume the next day to let the callus come? I've got the first three drills down. I've been repeating them.


the intentions of the drills are:
1. to understand and feel the weight shift of the disc.
2. to master manipulation of the weight shift of the disc.
3. to build the coordination and dexterity necessary to perform #1 and #2.

anything beyond that doesn't really help you except in isolated cases, e.g. doing 2 hammer pounds as part of your pre-throw routine to "lock in" that feeling just before throwing.

KEY POINT: you ARE NOT trying to master the hammer drills, you ARE trying to master the feel/nuances of controlling the disc's weight by performing the hammer drills.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby douglas78 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:30 pm

I understand the purpose of these drills but I should of taped the upper portion of my index finger like the rest of it. I was going by the picture when i taped my finger in the first steps. It's the friction of the disc that's rubbing my finger when doing the hammer drill in the (fh) horizontal plane.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:43 pm

i wasn't necessarily directing the caps at you, but at a lot of people in general.

i've talked with several players that are like "i did 22 hours worth of hammer pounds last week" and it's like... damn... anything beyond 5 minutes (straight) on any one of the different pounds can be kind of overkill.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby zj1002 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:15 pm

Have you tried using a PVC pipe to teach people blake? Not sure if I have brought this up before

We randomly had some at Disc Nation and I started using them for my clinics a few months ago.

It is about a foot long, and I think a 2in diameter(bring on the dick jokes). On each end I have a cap. Its an easy way to show people how to create leverage and focus on the pound with out using an actual hammer. I just do my normal throw but because my grip is tight around the cap, the pvc pipe shoots out forward about 100ft, while the cap shoots straight backward with my follow through. I have had a few customers build up to it and they can pull it off every few tries now. Its really just a great visual effect to make folks see what actually is happening to create at least a decent hit. It shows them how to leverage the entire weight of the disc forward on to a point, which causes the pipe to shoot out from the cap. The cap stays in my hand, and I as I said usually shoots out backwards towards my customers which really opens their eyes.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby niq » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:40 pm

Blake_T wrote:in order to build power you can do two things:
1. try to get as far forward into the pocket before unloading. e.g. you will have more power if you are 12" past your body into the pocket before unloading than if you are 2" past your body.
2. make sure you bring the head of the hammer (outer edge of the disc) around during your extension. ideal position is where the head of the hammer is pointing towards the target (your hand will be at around a 4 o'clock orientation).


Is there a limit to how far in you can go? It seems like the "depth" of the power pocket is determined by the length of my upper and lower arm and how far closed my wrist can bend. I am also still having grip problems, it seems like everything can uncoil so fast once i get into the power pocket that my fingers/hand/arm just leave the disc behind before I can apply all of the leverage/force to the disc. I'm going to try some experiments tonight with gripping earlier (maybe starting somewhere between my left and right pec) and uncoiling slower (not actively opening as hard/fast) to see what happens
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JR » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:53 pm

The wrist snaps slower with less force=easier to hold on to until the end of the disc pivot with the right pec drill. Once you do that a long reach back stand still and so forth. I'd also try setting down the thumb almost vertical in the outermost section of the thumb like the Jenkinses and on top of a Pro plastic disc with the thumb just off of the wing in the flight plate so that the flight plate caves in. That'll lock the thumb way better than normal grip and because the thumb is the weak link fighting alone vs 4 fingers underneath the disc it can make all the difference in the world.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby niq » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:25 pm

Thanks for the reply JR. I didn't get a chance to do any testing tonight, hopefully some time this week since I wont be able to tomorrow. I'll try with the thumb tip on top like AJ and see if that helps.
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