MVP's new driver -- Volt

Golf Discs, Bags, Baskets, Videos, and other Disc Golf Related Equipment

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JR » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:56 am

That is going overboard. They'll be better golfers once they clean up their form enough to throw them well and distance control is easier than many other aspects of form. Vector is controllable even with non perfect form. Ion putts great. And most MVP discs are geared toward good players being unforgiving.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11492
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby plex » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:24 pm

rusch_bag wrote:
discspeed wrote:
rusch_bag wrote:Great another disc from MVP that will be hard to land where you want it to. :\


This means you suck.


You need to pull your head out of your ass about MVPs products. No where near as good as you think they are. The only disc that I have thrown that I would even consider putting in my bag based on flight alone is the anode and it went way too far and was so hard to control its range with that it had no chance either. Somehow you and Mike C have managed to convince all of DGCR that they are the greatest things ever and you are making them all worse golfers by doing so.


MVP discs have made me a far better player in a shorter period of time than any other discs have been able to.

The Vector has replaced the ROC for me and it is the most consistent disc i have ever thrown. Holds similar lines, and does it better, farther, and holds up longer.
The Axis compliments it well and holds anny lines like a dream for me, allowing me to make shots i was never able to with any other disc. Axis is the most versatile midrange ever made.
The ION has increased my effective putting range by about 20 feet this summer alone.. Next summer with more practice i only see that range expanding as my muscle memory adapts to the disc better

I play in tournaments on a monthly basis and MVP has improved my game to the point where i am winning most the tournaments i play in.. or at least in top 3 consistently.

Maybe you just havnt given MVP an honest chance? Maybe you are resisting change? Maybe your form isnt there.

Im not sure why you wouldn't throw such superior discs, with superior gyroscopic properties that hold lines longer, and glide farther than anything else i have ever thrown.

You can keep your old discs, im going to continue benefiting from discs that are pioneering the next generation in disc technology.

I just throw what works best for me.
Destroyer, Sword, Shock, Volt, Amp, River, Gator, Vector, Axis, Ion
plex
Noob
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: WI, USA
Favorite Disc: Ion

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby ferretdance03 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:14 pm

plex wrote:...i am winning most the tournaments i play in...

Bagger.
ferretdance03
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:55 am
Location: PA*sevenoneseven
Favorite Disc: glow wizard

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JR » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:24 pm

Plex you should move up unless you're in open already then you just need to challenge better players in bigger tournys. Warship is close to the Axis in flight with more tolerance to finger drag or sticking issues and is equally long. Coyote is longer and Squall and Stalker out of tweeners are even longer.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11492
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby plex » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:13 am

I play in Open most of the time, unless its a course i have never played before, then i play advanced as to make up for my inexperience with that course.

also, i will try the Warship and report back with my comparison to the Axis. Thanks for the recommendation :)

What Weight, plastic, color is the best choice for the warship? (sometimes different colors have different feels)
I usually throw 175g for reference.
Destroyer, Sword, Shock, Volt, Amp, River, Gator, Vector, Axis, Ion
plex
Noob
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: WI, USA
Favorite Disc: Ion

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JR » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:36 pm

Good for you. At your obvious good proficiency level i'd suggest not to get the beginner friendly Warship as the first option but the Coyote at max weight. Both Star and Champion are great. If you fall in love with those the Axis and the Warship are in danger but perhaps the King Cobra and the Super Stingray aren't such useless discs because the great Coyote is so much longer than those two. Something that the overlapping to Coyote Axis and Warship aren't in a meaningful bag building sense. The Coyote is shorter than the Squall but at least in rear winds not shorter than the Stalker. I'm pretty sure that in calm weather the Stalker is longer than the Coyote although i haven't been able to compare those two properly post surgery this year after gaining power with mids. So what do i know ATM?

For an open player i recommend VIP max weight Warship over other variants for everything but wet and cold weather where a max weight TP would be better grip wise despite the slightly lesser HSS and LSS vs the VIP. For a new player i'd recommend a TP max to lighter weight based on their power and form. As it is the Coyote is a better disc IMO especially for a power player. It is much more available and more easy to replace. So i'd check the Coyote first and if it works think hard on trying out the Squall first or not at all and then not at all or at a lower priority the Warship. Not a power player disc but a great beginner disc and good understable disc for medium powered and form players.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11492
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby discspeed » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:05 pm

rusch_bag wrote:
discspeed wrote:
rusch_bag wrote:Great another disc from MVP that will be hard to land where you want it to. :\


This means you suck.


You need to pull your head out of your ass about MVPs products. No where near as good as you think they are. The only disc that I have thrown that I would even consider putting in my bag based on flight alone is the anode and it went way too far and was so hard to control its range with that it had no chance either. Somehow you and Mike C have managed to convince all of DGCR that they are the greatest things ever and you are making them all worse golfers by doing so.


I guess I just possess some secret ability to throw a disc a few times, note how far it goes, and then use it for shots of that distance. In general I like the discs that go the farthest with the least effort as long as consistency of line and across common wind conditions is not sacrificed. I find MVP's discs hit that nail on the head, and that's the main reason I enjoy using them.

Opinions are opinions, but it seems pretty absurd on your part to simply tell me what I should believe regarding MVP discs when I've been using these discs for years and you haven't even taken the time to learn how far they fly (which does render them fairly ineffective on the course). As far as the golfers on DGCR are concerned...Becoming a betting scoring golfer has just about nothing to do with what brand of discs someone throws. MVP discs require cleaner releases and more spin to get the most out of the gyro, so I'd say if someone buys one and takes the time to be able to throw it well I'd say that their technique/release mechanics will have improved slightly for it.
discspeed
Most Gyroscopic Poster (MGP)
User avatar
 
Posts: 5465
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:02 am
Location: Clearwater, FL
Favorite Disc: Ion

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Frank Delicious » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:48 pm

MVP discs are pretty good, the mids I'm kinda eh on but the Ion and anode are solid. I carry an anode but mostly just use it for driving as it goes far with little effort. For range controlling upshots, I find it easier to throw something like an aviar. If they make a driver that goes farther with the same amount of effort as my eagles then I am highly interested.
Frank Delicious
The Crime Prince of Clown
User avatar
 
Posts: 12364
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:43 pm
Location: Drowning in a cold river
Favorite Disc: Wraith

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JHern » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:16 pm

plex wrote:...Im not sure why you wouldn't throw such superior discs, with superior gyroscopic properties that hold lines longer, and glide farther than anything else i have ever thrown...


I like MVP discs, but I must chime in and say that the "superior gyroscopic properties" is just a gimmick, and it has never been backed up by measurements and calculations. In fact, my own calculations suggest that it is impossible to gain significantly more gyroscopic stability than discs currently have, even if the flight plate were weightless and all mass was in the rim."Glide" is an aerodynamic property, and has everything to do with the shape of the disc and how it diverts the air flow around it...MVP has done a great job of that.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2620
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Aubin » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:09 am

JHern wrote:
plex wrote:...Im not sure why you wouldn't throw such superior discs, with superior gyroscopic properties that hold lines longer, and glide farther than anything else i have ever thrown...


I like MVP discs, but I must chime in and say that the "superior gyroscopic properties" is just a gimmick, and it has never been backed up by measurements and calculations. In fact, my own calculations suggest that it is impossible to gain significantly more gyroscopic stability than discs currently have, even if the flight plate were weightless and all mass was in the rim."Glide" is an aerodynamic property, and has everything to do with the shape of the disc and how it diverts the air flow around it...MVP has done a great job of that.


I'd have to agree.

Has anyone actually sacrificed an MVP disc, cut it up to prove that it has more weight on the outer edge than a 'regular' disc? Should be pretty easy to do.

take a disc from another company that is spec -wise nearly identical; same shape, overall weight, diameter, as close to identical as you can. cut out a pie slice from each, weight the slices so they are exact. even cut up multiple slices to get a broader sample size.

Assuming each slice is identical total weight, the MVP disc slice should have a center balance point that is way further toward the rim.
ChallengerMagnetCometTeebirdsDestroyersPredator
Aubin
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 350
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 7:59 am
Location: Milford, CT
Favorite Disc: APX

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Codester101 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:58 am

There is no need to cut a disc open to test this, all you need is a test to see rotational acceleration from a given force. A suction cup on the center of the disc, along with a string rotating around the stick the suction cup is attached to would be sufficient. Along with a weight and camera to time. I might have to try this now.
Codester101
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:16 pm
Favorite Disc: The one I can find.

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Aubin » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:17 am

that experiment sounds like it has waaay to many variables to be accurate, although it could work and be interesting.

I'm thinking the difference is so miniscule even cutting the disc into sections would not yield results one way or another.
ChallengerMagnetCometTeebirdsDestroyersPredator
Aubin
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 350
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 7:59 am
Location: Milford, CT
Favorite Disc: APX

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JHern » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:54 am

Aubin wrote:...Has anyone actually sacrificed an MVP disc, cut it up to prove that it has more weight on the outer edge than a 'regular' disc?.


It isn't necessary to cut it up, you can measure the moment of inertia without destroying the disc or harming it in any way.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2620
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby discspeed » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:21 pm

JHern wrote:
plex wrote:...Im not sure why you wouldn't throw such superior discs, with superior gyroscopic properties that hold lines longer, and glide farther than anything else i have ever thrown...


I like MVP discs, but I must chime in and say that the "superior gyroscopic properties" is just a gimmick, and it has never been backed up by measurements and calculations. In fact, my own calculations suggest that it is impossible to gain significantly more gyroscopic stability than discs currently have, even if the flight plate were weightless and all mass was in the rim."Glide" is an aerodynamic property, and has everything to do with the shape of the disc and how it diverts the air flow around it...MVP has done a great job of that.


I understand skepticism is essential to any sort of scientific reasoning, and your math/science background is far beyond my reach, but I still think it's reaching a bit far to simply call it a gimmick. It would be absolutely retarded of MVP to incur double the production costs to double mold their discs for a gimmick. Perhaps the wording/marketing is incorrect from a technical perspective (how do you define "superior"?), but their discs fly different due to how they are put together.

Anyway, even though I'm not technically educated enough to identify what it is, I believe you are missing something(Chad could probably talk it out with you, but he's unlikely to get into proprietary info on the net). If not, then almost all my experience throwing discs is useless because MVP discs fly different for me than similarly shaped single plastic discs do.
discspeed
Most Gyroscopic Poster (MGP)
User avatar
 
Posts: 5465
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:02 am
Location: Clearwater, FL
Favorite Disc: Ion

Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JHern » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:51 pm

discspeed wrote:
JHern wrote:
plex wrote:...Im not sure why you wouldn't throw such superior discs, with superior gyroscopic properties that hold lines longer, and glide farther than anything else i have ever thrown...


I like MVP discs, but I must chime in and say that the "superior gyroscopic properties" is just a gimmick, and it has never been backed up...


I understand skepticism is essential to any sort of scientific reasoning, and your math/science background is far beyond my reach, but I still think it's reaching a bit far to simply call it a gimmick...


It is a hypothesis that I've tested, and that I've found to be lacking.

discspeed wrote:It would be absolutely retarded of MVP to incur double the production costs to double mold their discs for a gimmick.


Maybe so, but perhaps there are other good reasons for molding the plastic this way, and they just got lucky that it flies well, and then mistakenly called it "superior gyroscopic blah blah..." For example, they could not use the smooth rigid clear plastic in the flight plate for the entire disc, it would be too slick to get a firm grip. They also could not use the outer black rubbery stuff for the entire disc, either, but it makes for a great rim feel and much improved grip. With both pieces, I think it makes for a superior disc that is much stronger, resistant to impacts, will last a lot longer, beat-in more slowly, etc..

I think the double mold is a great idea, but I'd be very surprised if they were originally motivated to do this for the purpose of increasing the moment of inertia...all they have to do is estimate the magnitude of this effect on the back of an envelope, and they'd see that at best there can only be a very slight gain. And then they can perform another estimate of how this will affect the flight. It would be unwise to NOT do these steps before engaging in an expensive production technique.

discspeed wrote:...I believe you are missing something(Chad could probably talk it out with you, but he's unlikely to get into proprietary info on the net). If not, then almost all my experience throwing discs is useless because MVP discs fly different for me than similarly shaped single plastic discs do.


The only thing proprietary about their process is the double molding, and I do think that's pretty cool!

..............................

The thing about discs, and we all know this very well from experience, is that a teensy, tiny, microscopic, imperceptibly slight variation in the disc shape can result in dramatically different flight characteristics. The difference in thermal expansivity between different plastic runs causes the disc to shrink differently out of the injection mold. Thermal expansivity is a very small effect, roughly of order several microns in disc diameter for every degree celsius cooling...for a typical disc, it probably shrinks by of order a few hundred microns. But in comparing different plastic blends, only the difference in thermal expansivity matters, so you're really just comparing tens of microns changes in shape between one blend and another. But changes of order ten microns (a dust particle this size cannot be seen by the naked eye) has a HUGE influence on the flight characteristics of an injection-molded disc...as disc golfers, we know this from experience.

Why is the flight so very sensitive to microscopic changes in disc shape? In fact, we know the answer: It is because the flow of air induced around a disc in flight is highly turbulent and non-linear. Mathematically, we know that this comes from the velocity squared term in the governing equations (aka Navier-Stokes), a term that has also been called the "Reynolds stress." This term, balanced by the dynamic pressure gradient, dominates the aerodynamic force balance on a disc in flight. Viscous stresses and body forces (in the air) are not important at the scale length of the disc, they only become important at very small length scales (where eddies are dissipated and transformed into random thermal motion of air molecules). If you change the surface around which air flows, even slightly, the previous pattern of flow becomes unstable and it is significantly modified. This changes the pressure distribution around the disc surface, causing it to anhyzer or hyzer more or less, hold the line better, etc., and all of this is occurring in ways that are difficult to predict because the flow is turbulent. Note that aerodynamicists are still struggling to understand why dimples on a golf ball allow it to fly so much further...these are not easy problems to solve!

So, whenever I see something different in one disc vs another disc, my first instinct is to suspect that there is a subtle shape difference, and I know for a fact that imperceptible shape differences can affect flight dramatically. When I calculate the maximum possible moment of inertia that a disc can have, and I see very little gain in using more dense plastic on the rim, then it leads me to believe that a subtle difference in shape, probably correlated with the double molding process, is very likely the cause of differences in flight between, for example, the Ion vs the Wizard. And there are many good reasons to expect slight differences in shape between them, given the dramatically different molding processes and plastics they use. The aerodynamical influence of the seam between the 2 plastics might also be important in giving the Ion characteristics that differ from the Wizard.

In the end, all of this can be easily measured and tested...with the right instruments and facilities, I could actually produce a very precise diagnosis for any kind of disc, particularly in comparing different discs. If only I could find the extra time (it would eat into my disc golfing time, too!). I will do it, one day, still hoping that a disc manufacturer could help with the (minor) costs...they'd get a lot of great info out of it, in return! But I would refuse to make it proprietary, the information would benefit everyone, and help us understand our essential sporting equipment.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2620
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

PreviousNext

Return to Equipment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot] and 1 guest