I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

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I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby keltik » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:09 pm

so in the middle of the sig stat thread I outed myself as having a 785 PDGA rating. First off there is nothing wrong with my throwing form. I spent way too much time in an empty field while I was unemployed.

so is there anything you guys with better ratings can tell me to do to up my ratings. I guess my new DG goal is a 900 rating. There are some tourneys coming up around here. I've got a solid month to practice. so let me have it.

EDIT: removed picture
Last edited by keltik on Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Blake_T » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:51 pm

If your #1 concern is to raise your rating, focus on tournaments on easy to medium difficulty courses where you can throw consistently well. The top pro scores tend to not stray much when they win, e.g. -8 per round on a hard course, -10 per round on a super easy course.

This tends to curve everything... -3 on the super super easy course will likely pull a 940 rating while the equivalent difficulty +4 on a hard course will be like 880.

Make sure your division plays from the same teepads or expect an even lower round rating.

Im sure it isn't supposed to calc out that way but it seems to from my experiences
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby CatPredator » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:03 pm

First, that pic doesn't work for me. It seems like you are still 10-15 strokes per round away from where you want to be. A large part of your problem may be that you did so much practicing in an empty field focusing on distance instead of working on shooting good scores by hitting your lines and putts and honing your mental game.

It doesn't take much to get a 900 rating: make putts inside 25', don't 3 putt, get up and down when you're inside ~150', and hit your line on shorter drives (<300'). Play for par on harder holes and take higher percentage shots. You have to be taking multiple double and triple bogies every round to end up with a sub 800 rating. Play smarter golf and try to play in a way that makes it easy for you to maintain your composure. If missing a tricky jumper will result in you getting pissed off and 3 putting, then just lay it up and take the stroke, instead of giving up multiples.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby JR » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:21 pm

Confidence in shot making ability is earned like Mark Ellis told in the Discraft putting confidence clinic video. You need to do that but you also need someone to check up on your putting form first. Can you make a video of that? Thinner putters like Pures, Spikes and XDs or the really thin Wedge don't stick to the hands so it helps in approaching. From 100' in you should be able to approach with stand stills with putters. Look up Jussi Meresmaa at the Finnish Open or FO2010 videos on Youtube channel lcgm8 and see how he bends his knees and leans far back initially and then see how cat like smooth he shifts weight and throws and especially follows through in approaches. He eliminates jerky motions that send the approaches far off.

Your bag needs a review so that you have straight discs to all distances playing in NC and you need as HSS ones as possible too. The putter needs to ne able to fly to the basket with light muscle usage and hopefully not fly by more than 15' inside the ring. This depends on your style too. Lasers are the easiest shots to plan and give you the least chance of a mental error as long as the disc flies flat as on rails. If you can't already get a Comet to fly reliably on a straight line yet it needs to be honed. You need to do an approach and short laser drive (300') confidence clinic too and for that i suggest the Comet if it behaves and if it doesn't the Coyote. You could do with Super Stingray but it is wider thus it won't penetrate gaps as well. And for consistency the SS needs too much power to get to 300' vs the Coyote.

You need discs that you don't need to fight to cover left, straight and right shots to all distances. If you have too fast and LSS discs for annies you always need to nut them to keep them turning right and often they won't do it fast enough and the difference between a flex out and rolling is 2-3 degrees of anny angle and a couple of feet of apex height. And if you threw a Star Aviar P&A it would keep on turning faster right with twice the amount of anny angle safety margin and at almost every non stall or close to the ground apex height.

Straight discs don't need to be mashed in order to fly on a laser line. Point and shoot is an easy way to place the disc. You get what you see. If you carry too fast and overstable discs alone on the drivers the longer shots are out of reach of your mids and often times fade out early to the left. Especially when you are tired and in the NC humidity. If you don't own a birdie bag that would be a great help if you corrected that situation. I'd also try to put the outermost section of the thumb almost vertically down on the flight plate in approaches and drives at least and getting the thumb on the flight plate just off of the wing to help in eliminating the chance of slips. For diagnosing purpose at least maybe permanently too considering how humid it can get over there. And not knowing how tacky your skin is.

A bad putter can lose over 18 strokes per round on the green so it gives the fastest savings in strokes when rectified. The best putting tip i've ever found is to move the arm lightning fast in the end. Whether it is before the elbow straightens out in a laser putt, turning the disc from almost vertical at your belt buckle to flat and firing immediately after the disc has become flat with an inch or two of movement or at the end of a pitch putt once the disc has reached the proper height. That snake strike speed that Dave Dunipace shows in one Innova video is the key to a good putt. The second best tip is to not allow a laser putt to have the disc in the hand when the elbow is straight. Then the disc misses right. And you were too slow with the snake strike. In order to get both the best and the second best tip to work you gotta have the forearm muscles as loose as possible just not letting the disc to fall or change angles. The third best tip is to release the putter as high as you can without needing to make corrections in the aiming height. A few inches of added height means several feet of added distance which done with a lower release would require tons more muscle power and weight shift to be used. Of course a 100 % effort all the way throughout the throw from the muscles ruins i repeat destroys accuracy and consistency. Eliminating that makes a world of difference.

Here is the bane of putting: For most of the stroke in laser and pitch putts the forearm muscles and the hand needs to be loose and when you start to accelerate quickly it needs to be at least 80 and often 100 % muscle speed effort. Notice i wrote speed not power? Speed is a result of acceleration and in physics the formula of power is mass times acceleration. You don't create putting power from tense muscles throughout the whole diameter of the forearm muscles and the muscle opposite the bicep that straightens the elbow and the shoulder muscles that raise the whole arm forward. The acceleration comes from using the outside of the muscles. That is the fastest part of the muscles and they create the twitch reflex that pulls your fingers off of hot objects. That is the fastest your arm can move and that is what you need at longer distances in putting.

You need to go light on the muscles to get far and making it with a putt. Go light or go home with the muscles.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby JHern » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:15 pm

Sounds like mental game issues, either in strategy/tactics on each hole, or in staying warm and in the zone. I have problems with the latter, since PDGA tournaments are so damn slow! My rating recently dropped under 900 because I played the slowest paced tournaments in my entire life. For example, the Spring Fling at Morley Field, where they packed the cards with players to make money (combined with the worst players pack of all time), and then foul weather on top of it all. But the slower I play, the worse I play. I still haven't found a way out of that, there doesn't seem to be anything to do, although I suspect that playing in Pro-only events could help my rating enormously since they seem to move much more quickly.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Mark Ellis » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:17 am

keltik wrote:so in the middle of the sig stat thread I outed myself as having a 785 PDGA rating. First off there is nothing wrong with my throwing form. I spent way too much time in an empty field while I was unemployed.

so is there anything you guys with better ratings can tell me to do to up my ratings. I guess my new DG goal is a 900 rating. There are some tourneys coming up around here. I've got a solid month to practice. so let me have it.

EDIT: removed picture


Keltik,

Take advantage of the fact you live in North Carolina. I just played the Worlds there so I know you have stacks of great courses and great players. Find a good Pro to give you a basic lesson. There is something very wrong with a player who has good form, has practiced diligently and yet has a 785 rating. Those factors don't add up so in few minutes a good Pro can recognize whatever the problems are and give you things to work on.

Then start playing with good players on good courses. Seek out leagues and casual rounds with good players. Play tournaments regularly. Do not be intimidated. There is no shame in sucking. The shame is when you allow yourself to continue to suck.

As for ratings, don't worry about them. Concentrate on making good shots and putting together solid rounds. Ratings will take care of themselves and you have so much room for improvement you don't need special tricks to boost them. Besides ratings don't give you anything but bragging rights. Focus instead on getting better and cashing in your division.

Of course the fastest way to improve your scores is to make short putts. I suspect at least part of the 785 is attributed to putts inside 20 feet. Short putts are a function of confidence and practice.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Dag » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:35 am

I can empathize. I personally am fighting against three big disadvantages; lack of coordination, lack of practice/play time and lack of youth. While I'll never set the world on fire, I would like to break out of the 'MA4 Life' crowd. The things that seem to help me most are:

Putting, putting and more putting. That 20' mark that Mark mentions is a good working goal. Get to 90-95% < 20' and when you miss putts, miss long (though < 20') knowing you will make it the next time. Short putts never had a chance. When my putting is off I can easily burn 50 rating points on this alone.

Burn some pride on what you know you should throw and what will work. When I'm feeling 'off' on whatever resembles form, I'll set aside the mid that I 'know' I should be throwing and substitute in a fairway. With the fairway I may sacrifice some precision but the potential for a greater error (like the unwanted turnover that finds all the gaps and ends up 100' into the myrtle) far out weighs this.

Competing in lower divisions, focus on pars and take birdies when they fall in your lap, it's more about not screwing up. Plan your throws and don't be ashamed to do putter putter putter if that seems the safest way.

Don't get pissed off. This is my nemesis. I don't devolve into kicking, cussing stupidity but I'll boil inside when I do something stupid and eat a stroke or two because of it. Haven't figured how to eliminate this one yet. Mebbe just make less stupid mistakes.
...there was a time when you were taught to find the best disc for you, not the best disc for your situation on the course, which is how they are sold now. IMO, the flight charts are basically there to point out all the stuff you dont have in your bag and why you suck.

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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby JR » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:56 pm

Dag that could be a cultural issue thanks to christianity stumping bad vikings and their behavior. Finns think the Swedes are talkative because being silent means someone is angry and looking for a time when the target turns his back and you can bury an axe into his head. The same cultural differences in Sweden have traditionally demanded people biting down on their anger and Swedes in Finland are appalled by the Finns letting the steam out. The result is that Finns don't explode as violently as Swedes because we use an emergency overcooking valve to let the pressure subside whereas traditionally Swedes rupture at the seams more often. That is the stereotype supported by some evidence. Naturally this is a generalization and does not predict how individuals behave and may not be relevant at all in the modern day. Although Finnish Swedish originated minority still seems to stick to the old ways in that if it hurts i still won't show it. Sound familiar? Stiff upper lip stuff.

As a result Finns seem often to be uncivilized quarreling louts having been raised in a barrel and not knowing anything else about the world than what is inside that barrel to some outsiders. When the reality is that Finns respond more to realities and bark harder than bite. So to a Finn biting is a greater offence than barking to people from some other cultures. As a viking era analogue from Sweden Finns barking today is like Swedes talking a lot so that nobody starts to swing an axe after brooding silently thinking bloody murder. This according to history, sociology, psychology and some Swedish writers whose names escape me. And me knowing a little about Finns being one.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:12 pm

JR wrote:Dag that could be a cultural issue thanks to christianity stumping bad vikings and their behavior. Finns think the Swedes are talkative because being silent means someone is angry and looking for a time when the target turns his back and you can bury an axe into his head. The same cultural differences in Sweden have traditionally demanded people biting down on their anger and Swedes in Finland are appalled by the Finns letting the steam out. The result is that Finns don't explode as violently as Swedes because we use an emergency overcooking valve to let the pressure subside whereas traditionally Swedes rupture at the seams more often. That is the stereotype supported by some evidence. Naturally this is a generalization and does not predict how individuals behave and may not be relevant at all in the modern day. Although Finnish Swedish originated minority still seems to stick to the old ways in that if it hurts i still won't show it. Sound familiar? Stiff upper lip stuff.

As a result Finns seem often to be uncivilized quarreling louts having been raised in a barrel and not knowing anything else about the world than what is inside that barrel to some outsiders. When the reality is that Finns respond more to realities and bark harder than bite. So to a Finn biting is a greater offence than barking to people from some other cultures. As a viking era analogue from Sweden Finns barking today is like Swedes talking a lot so that nobody starts to swing an axe after brooding silently thinking bloody murder. This according to history, sociology, psychology and some Swedish writers whose names escape me. And me knowing a little about Finns being one.


Hold on, am I missing something here? Is the name of this thread, " I admit it, I suck at differentiating between Finns and Swedes?"

If a Swede shanked a Buzzz and a Finn shanked a Roc, who would be closer to the basket? Who would the Norwegian root for? What is the Scandinavian view of supply economics and anhyzering downhill?
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:32 pm

Mark, meet JR...
I am dumb.

...and a drama queen.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Blake_T » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:49 pm

Keltik, i know my answer might seem odd, but i had a discussion recently with an am2 player about how to get your rating higher without actually getting better.

Getting better is always the preferred method, but ratings can be quite deceptive depending upon the courses and tournaments. There can be quite a bit of ratings bias in this regards.

The ratings and ssa's are supposed to compensate for this but they don't do it perfectly. These are some tips on how to inflate your rating without getting better.

Rule #1: never play in a division that uses different teepads from adv/pro. Sometimes they will toss am2/am1/juniors/etc. onto some shorter layout: all low-rated players with ratings determined by what they did months ago. The end result is that if the average rating on this layout is like 850, it's next to impossible to throw a well-rated round unless you beat the entire field by like 12 strokes per round.

Rule #2: avoid tournaments on extremely difficult courses. The top pros, and even the top advanced guys will throw well. If you have 1-3 ~1000 rated guys throwing -8 to -12 per round on a hard course it will really hurt you. If -1 to +3 per round is good enough to finish top 3 in am2, you'll likely end up in the 900-930 for those scores. If you play an easier course, where say top 3 am2 needs -2 to -5 per round, the top pro guys are still only going to throw -10 to -13. Those Am2 scores will likely pull in 930-960 even though they played equivalently well on both courses. The hard courses are ones that are incredibly long or have tons of danger, eg. Thick schule lining both sides of the fairway on half of the holes.

Rule #3: avoid tournaments on super easy courses. If the over Half the pro field shoots -8 per round or better and winning shoots something like -14 per round or better it forces you to bring your A game or you rating will tank. If you are on and shoot -8 per round you're golden. If you're slightly off and don't bogey but don't rack up birdies and shoot say, -2, you'll be lucky to have your rating break 900 even though you didn't play terrible.

Rule #4: get very good at playing in crap weather. If you can adjust for heavy wind and rain and only lose 1-3 strokes due to weather, playing "decent" will put you way ahead of everyone else that tanks out. If you don't lose much due to weather you are almost certain to raise your rating if it rains or is super windy. I had a student throw a 1006 rated round in am2 simply because he played pretty well on a windy day.

Basic summary: play medium difficulty to somewhat easy courses that are forgiving (if you miss the fairway you should be able to easily save for 3). Avoid super easy pitch and putt courses. Always play in a division that uses the long tees. Make sure you can adjust your footwork, lines, and shot selection for wind and rain.

With those 4 tips its fairly easy to get a ratings boost without actually improving at disc golf :p
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby keltik » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:25 pm

I wish you had outlined these rules earlier. I just signed for a tourney for Rec (lowest division offered). it plays on two courses. One is a temp course they only lay out once a year for this event and I'll probably have to play that one blind. the second course is 5 minutes from the house and I play it often but I usually play blue or gold. I'm almost sure they'll make Rec play from the white so I may have shot myself in the foot on that one. but there are more coming up but I'm not sure about the courses.

I really do want to improve my overall game. I guess I've been fooled to think my rating is an indicator of my skill level. but I do want a higher rating.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:47 pm

Blake_T wrote:Keltik, i know my answer might seem odd, but i had a discussion recently with an am2 player about how to get your rating higher without actually getting better.

Getting better is always the preferred method, but ratings can be quite deceptive depending upon the courses and tournaments. There can be quite a bit of ratings bias in this regards.

The ratings and ssa's are supposed to compensate for this but they don't do it perfectly. These are some tips on how to inflate your rating without getting better.

Rule #1: never play in a division that uses different teepads from adv/pro. Sometimes they will toss am2/am1/juniors/etc. onto some shorter layout: all low-rated players with ratings determined by what they did months ago. The end result is that if the average rating on this layout is like 850, it's next to impossible to throw a well-rated round unless you beat the entire field by like 12 strokes per round.

Rule #2: avoid tournaments on extremely difficult courses. The top pros, and even the top advanced guys will throw well. If you have 1-3 ~1000 rated guys throwing -8 to -12 per round on a hard course it will really hurt you. If -1 to +3 per round is good enough to finish top 3 in am2, you'll likely end up in the 900-930 for those scores. If you play an easier course, where say top 3 am2 needs -2 to -5 per round, the top pro guys are still only going to throw -10 to -13. Those Am2 scores will likely pull in 930-960 even though they played equivalently well on both courses. The hard courses are ones that are incredibly long or have tons of danger, eg. Thick schule lining both sides of the fairway on half of the holes.

Rule #3: avoid tournaments on super easy courses. If the over Half the pro field shoots -8 per round or better and winning shoots something like -14 per round or better it forces you to bring your A game or you rating will tank. If you are on and shoot -8 per round you're golden. If you're slightly off and don't bogey but don't rack up birdies and shoot say, -2, you'll be lucky to have your rating break 900 even though you didn't play terrible.

Rule #4: get very good at playing in crap weather. If you can adjust for heavy wind and rain and only lose 1-3 strokes due to weather, playing "decent" will put you way ahead of everyone else that tanks out. If you don't lose much due to weather you are almost certain to raise your rating if it rains or is super windy. I had a student throw a 1006 rated round in am2 simply because he played pretty well on a windy day.

Basic summary: play medium difficulty to somewhat easy courses that are forgiving (if you miss the fairway you should be able to easily save for 3). Avoid super easy pitch and putt courses. Always play in a division that uses the long tees. Make sure you can adjust your footwork, lines, and shot selection for wind and rain.

With those 4 tips its fairly easy to get a ratings boost without actually improving at disc golf :p


Blake T,

You may have just started a billion word argument with Chuck Kennedy. The rest of us won't understand any of it but we can cheer from the sidelines. Bring in Bruce Brakel and it may expand by a few billion words or so. Please spare a little bandwith so we can argue the merits of the next wonder disc from an unknown manufacturer.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby keltik » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:54 pm

JR will understand it. and in some weird way I understand what JR says. I have to read it in small bursts though.
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Re: I admit it, I suck at Disc Golf

Postby Blake_T » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:50 pm

Most players rated In the 850-930 range have decent peak ability but struggle with consistency. This method only really works for those players. These rules bank on the idea that the players with high peak ability and high levels of consistency will play pretty well just about everywhere.

Inconsistent players will play proportionately worse on courses where:
A) they are punished badly for any errant shot. (extremely difficult courses)
B) they NEEED to deuce every hole. (extremely easy courses)

If you stick to courses where missing the fairway doesn't ruin you and there are holes difficult enough that everyone isn't deucing everything, you are more likely to play a better rated round.

At the same time, you can't really raise your rating beyond 940ish with this route.
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