Help needed

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Help needed

Postby fusan » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:30 am

So i finally got some vids on the tube of my form.
I have been reading the Maxing Out @ 300 feet (among many others in this forum) and tried to understand and incooperate the basics
to my throw. The two vids are from different angles, but i couldnt convert them to slow motion for a better view. Hope ppl can download
them at view the frame by frame.
I max out at 330 feet so every comment is very welcome and much appreciated.

Back view
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS9d4Bwmk9I&feature=plcp[/youtube]

Side view
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERAPoyjABs4&feature=plcp[/youtube]
(Dont get confused by the warp speed sound. It didnt add any length to the throw :) )
Last edited by fusan on Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:32 am

Arghh... noob here. Couldnt attach the video properly, dang.
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Re: Help needed

Postby JR » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:21 am

Welcome.

I tried to link your vids here but they only gave the same result as your post did. I did the linking exactly the same as on the links below so i don't know why it didn't work.



Rounding, you are doing that. You aren't getting the elbow forward enough to pull on a straight line because there is no pause in the body rotation during which to move the elbow forward. The sequence is body facing back moving to pointing 90 degrees left of the target, pausing the legs and the hips rotation while moving the elbow forward, then pushing hard with the legs and twisting the hips plus turning the shoulders late then chopping the elbow straight. Because your left leg is in the air when the disc leaves you can't accelerate to the end so efficiently and can't get the body to rotate fast enough. The lateness and then quickness of the second phase of the rotation/acceleration of the body is something that most don't get. People tend to start early and too slow. You too.

At 24 seconds is a 600' thrower that maximizes the weight shift doing the same movements more extremely than you in running direction and planting the leg way left. That is gonna create more power but it costs accuracy and consistency especially on off days and slippery ground. You have less eye to target contact in this manner than possible so it reduces the effectiveness of one aiming method. It is a nice trick to getting more distance.


The same guy in action i keep having a problem getting this link to show up here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkfTI9AKj9M&feature=plcp[/youtube]

The flat footedness has to go or you'll hurt yourself and it also increases power and consistency when you pivot cleanly with much less friction.

About the lateness of the leg pivot and the duration of the pause here is the former world distance record holder:


Here is the reigning Finnish Open division champ, former junior world champ and 6th place finisher at worlds 2012 on the right side at 5:58:


On the left you have the beast himself. Aviars to past 400' in competition all the time when won the dubs world championships.You should watch the entire video to learn more. Much of what is taught here has been demonstrated by the guy being interviewed. Tomas has given ideas and pointers to Blake who has combined a lot of info from many sources and teaches that stuff here.

If you reach back farther you can at first lose balance and distance. When you get the balance from better coordination the timing comes back and you can use the limited brain processing power to time and power the late acceleration better for more power. Something that the longer reach back gives. To get more reach back the legs need to point farther away from the target in the x and plant steps.

There is more to driving farther like not strong arming the shot by using the arm at full acceleration later than you do in the second phase of the rotation but your form, timing and muscle utilization will change with the tips here so that once you've incorporated those changes you should take a new video to get you going even better. But first the fundamentals.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:29 am

Thank you for taking your time to comment on my form. It is much appreciated.

Just to sum things up...

Rounding/lack pause in the turn
I see what you mean by not having a pause/slow down when the shoulders are at 90 deg from the target to give time for the elbow to
get in the right position and ready to launch at full speed.
It is very hard for me to grasp how I can start the acceleration with the legs, hips and shoulders but keep it at a minimum and suddently
slow down and then accelerate fast again. I have tried it but it feels like theres no power left when I reach the 90 deg.
You are right I dont really get that late acceleration and how to generate power from it. I wish there was some way for me to get the "Aha"
to get this one.

Right leg left
I assume you want the feets more inline to have more consistent and accurate results. I think the reason Im getting the right foot left is
that I dont have the pause and allways threw to the right and therefore compensated.

The flatfootness
This one worries me a bit, cus I dont really understand what you mean here. But I assume you want me to be more light and on the toes of
my feet at the runup. Is that correct?

Longer reachback
You are absolutely right on this one. Ive tried to reach back more but lost balance and consistency. Ill have to work on this one to.
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Re: Help needed

Postby JR » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:14 pm

Technique forum secret technique threads are good reads. You actually don't need to push hard with the legs to get from 180 away to 90 away. You'll get to 90 free with momentum from a run up. You push with the left leg once the elbow is past the right side. Which is after the pause and the active arm moving from the shoulder socket to get the elbow moving forward. Beyond the right side.

This is a FAQ if only there was a FAQ here: Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is a mirror of that. I've written this so much that i need to sig this.

Flat footed means that you should be on the balls of the feet while running. The leg pivot is on the heel and the follow through moves the weight to the ball of the right foot and walking forward with the left leg.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:20 pm

I were out pracising today.
I have a very hard time incoorporating the pause in the rotation and then when the disc is at the right pec,
accelerate with full power. Just cant get the timing right and I get less power.
I witsh I could succed just one to get the feeling, so that I knew what to go for.
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:12 am

So today I were out again focusing mostly on the Right Pec drill and getting the feeling for it.
After a few hours I tried to get add reach back.
What Im focusing on is to bend the elbow and get the disc in towards the chest before any rotation with the back against the target. When the elbow is bent and the disc is in the Right Pec area, then I rotate the shoulders.
This is only a method to get the feeling for the late acceleration and getting the disc in to the power area, so the footwork and the other issues, are not being adressed yet.
Here are some videos of todays practice, let me know if Im on the right track with the late acceleration and getting the disc closer to the power area, so that I go on from here.

From behind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOXPnek4DtA&feature=plcp

Freom the side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW64I7GILIY&feature=plcp
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:43 am

Forgot this one... Think I got very close to the right pec here

Standstill from the side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma9T04Qx8FI&feature=plcp
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Re: Help needed

Postby JR » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:25 am

The side shots have the elbow well forward. People vary when and how much they twist the hips and turn the shoulders so i'd experiment with different amounts and timings to see which gives you the most distance now. Also best consistency and accuracy too.

These videos are so short that it is fairly easy pause the video and move the clip in small amounts. That helped me spot that in the final picture where the disc is in the hand with the stand still your left leg is in the air. How do you push to the right from that? You don't. Twisting the hips and turning the shoulders gets wasted to a degree.

I'd also check the difference of setting the right leg on the line you are running on -see my sig. Now you step a little like Miko Fyhr but not that extremely. That ain't the easiest way to throw accurately and consistently. It does add power for me at least. So does running in any arc. See the different running directions because they make a huge difference. Running in an arc can generate more power but sacrifices consistency and possibly accuracy.

The stand still didn't have much hip twist the side shot did some and very late. How about more twisting range to the right with equally late beginning? Then compare that to a little earlier onset of the twist until you've found your currently longest way. Then try to see if some other way is more accurate and consistent. If you find the optimum power and optimum accuracy the only unclear thing for the moment is to learn to select between the two on every shot you encounter.

The first guy is Miko and he has many other throws some of which are made in different clothing to the first shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkfTI9AKj9M&feature=plcp
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:06 pm

I do see what you mean by the lack of right rotation. It looks like the arm is sliding past the body without any help from
the hips or torso. And that is not possible without having the left foot on the toes to kick the rotation to the right with.
Well back to the drawing board again...

I was focusing on the tight and late acceleration today, but if I dont get the feet to work first I will not be able to make the
late rotation at all. I guess footwork is first priority now and then the late acceleration?

Btw, I didnt nottice Miko at the Copenhagen Open this year. Jussi, Seppo, Ville and a lot other finnish players were there though.
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Re: Help needed

Postby JR » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:05 pm

If time and money weren't an object who wouldn't tour everywhere? :-D One needs to be able to walk first before one can run. Even though getting the best results needs working from the hit back eventually that requires good enough basics. There the legwork becomes important. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't work on the late acceleration too. It is easiest to work on one thing at a time but most of legwork direction and planting position work is easy. Especially with flat shots. Everything happens on the center line of the tee when you go for maximum accuracy and disc golf is a game of accuracy. With enough form changes and training distance will come in time.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:09 pm

Well Im back.
As usual when Im at the course I meet some firends and instead of training Im playing a round.
So now Im getting back to training and starting with were I left... The footwork.
This has been VERY hard for me to grasp cus when I concentrate about pushing with the backfoot,
it is allready to late to get the the disc to the right pec. That will be incooperated later. First Ill
need to have the footwork in place.

I imagine that the sequence is:
- Push the backfoot/knee foreward so the hips rotate. The Torso gets twisted and the shoulders
just follows.
- When the hips are turned and the disc in the right pec, then the shoulders rotate with full power
and the arm stretches to eject the disc.

Anyway here is the video in slowmotion...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfOqauZs9Eo&feature=plcp
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Re: Help needed

Postby seabas22 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:37 pm

You need to brace your body/weight on the front side through the front heel before rotating. Your front knee is moving/sliding out in front of you collapsing instead of supporting your weight.




Also try planting the front foot during your backswing before you reach the top of the backswing and transition into the downswing and transferring weight more behind you:
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Re: Help needed

Postby fusan » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:32 pm

Watching the video again, I notticed the colapse too. It really shows in the drop of my head.
Another thing I see is that I now turn on my toes of the frontfoot. Never done that before.
So how do I avoid the colapse? By taking a longer step? Or just keeping the frontfoot more firm?
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Re: Help needed

Postby seabas22 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:52 pm

The head should drop in any throw unless you want work against gravity, but the collapse is from losing posture/bracing/balance and trying to shift your weight from in front of your instead of transferring your weight from behind you. Instead of talking about static positions, it really is more feel based through a dynamic motion...Check out anything on Shawn Clement's youtube channel regarding tilted spiral and braced tilt, or really there's tons of his videos that are great info and principles that translate to disc golf. You also aren't clearing the hips in the backswing, look up hogan power drill.
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