MVP's new driver -- Volt

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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Mike C » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:51 pm

Jesse B 707 wrote:me that's just a positive way to say "these things are hard to range and don't fade when you'd like them to".


I've heard a lot of people say this but I've personally never found it true. Do you only throw overstable discs and no worn buzzes, teebirds, leopards, comets etc.? Stuff that only fades hard? A straight flying disc really isn't that difficult to adjust for...neither is a glidey disc. Just use less snap, less height, more hyzer etc. I think the Vector is one of the easiest discs ever to range and haven't had an issue with their straighter molds either.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Leopard » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:37 pm

listing features that comprise a product's makeup, giving it a trademarked name to associate with your brand... call it hype or call it basic marketing. I don't get it, they utilize a feature which has an effect... they tell you about it... no different than any product including every single golf disc ever. no wild claims, nobody saying "we've made comets stupid". simply "this is one of several features that combine to make this a high-performance quality product". they're smart enough to add a new flavor to the Comet vibe in a particular plastic if that day comes. some discs benefit from plastic families they haven't used... some from wing types they haven't used... some from stability characteristics they haven't used. it's silly to say they haven't obsoleted things against which they've never competed.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby discspeed » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:06 pm

Ryan C wrote:I also have to strongly disagree with the MVP hypers that insist more gyroscopic=better. Discs that are more gyroscopic fly differently. I don't think many would argue against the Comet being one of the greatest golf discs ever made, for its true flight, glide, and line holding capabilities. But its just not very gyroscopic compared to other discs. Could you mold a disc in the exact shape of a comet with an overmold to make it more gyroscopic? Of course. But that would change the flight. It would not be a desirable if your goal was to make a disc that flies like a Comet.


The Comet is actually quite gyroscopic by design. Because it has a large diameter and a small rim it has a lot of weight very far from the center the Comet is more gyroscopic than most mids.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Ryan C » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:50 pm

Even if the Comet is more gyroscopic than most mids, which I disagree with, that's missing the point. The point being that putting more weight on the rim does make a disc fly differently, of course, but that doesn't mean that's always desirable.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby ferretdance03 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:00 pm

Leopard wrote:i throw better with a boner.

I thought this was scientific fact?

And I agree, I don't look at the "Gyro hype machine" as anything other than marketing, what's wrong with that?
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby zj1002 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:25 pm

And which one if will be the next to make a successful disc golf gimmick that is pushing quality standards to new heights?

Disc golf needs this stuff, gimmick or not

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MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Fightingthetide » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:27 pm

Is there any news on it's speed and stability?

EDIT - nevermind. Did some reading on previous pages, prior to the cat fight (kidding). I'm stoked! This sounds like a great stable control driver!
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Leopard » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:00 pm

Fightingthetide wrote:Is there any news on it's speed and stability?

i've had a Volt for maybe over a month now.. just one photo model. KILLING ME to not be able to test it out, also see what ZJ can do with it since his driving is so far beyond mine. we both love OLFs and that's exactly what we're expecting as a baseline comparison from this disc.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby discspeed » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:39 am

Ryan C wrote:Even if the Comet is more gyroscopic than most mids, which I disagree with, that's missing the point. The point being that putting more weight on the rim does make a disc fly differently, of course, but that doesn't mean that's always desirable.


You are right, there is no character of flight that is desirable to everyone. Regarding the Comet's gyroscopic properties compared to other mids, just look at it's outside diameter and inside rim diameter and you get a basic idea of how much plastic is how far from the center. The Comet is slightly larger than most discs, so it's 1.2cm rim is farther from the center of the disc than say a Roc or a Buzzz.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby jubuttib » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:45 am

The Comet is hugely gyroscopic. It's a fairly deep profile disc, the flight plate isn't particularly thick and to the extent I can measure it with my calipers it's a whopping 4-5 mm bigger in diameter in Z and ESP than the Axis, even though according to the specs they both should be identical in diameter (they probably certified it when using a baseline plastic that had a lot of shrinkage). That's about the same difference as between normal small and large diameter discs. A large part of why large diameter discs fly so much more neutral than or at least have slower movements than smaller diameter mids is the bigger diameter, and the Comet is the largest diameter mid I've ever seen (apart from Condors and stuff like that). Of course the shape is the dominant factor, but the size is a major point too.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby zj1002 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:20 am

Leopard wrote:
Fightingthetide wrote:Is there any news on it's speed and stability?

i've had a Volt for maybe over a month now.. just one photo model. KILLING ME to not be able to test it out, also see what ZJ can do with it since his driving is so far beyond mine. we both love OLFs and that's exactly what we're expecting as a baseline comparison from this disc.


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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JHern » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:15 am

discspeed wrote:...Making discs more gyroscopic is good. Dave Mac made the Wizard more gyroscopic than the Aviar-x, and it made it better. Not better enough to make someone a better putter or to allow Gateway players to dominate the putting green, but better in small incremental ways that nerds discuss on the internet. Now MVP made the Ion more gyroscopic than the Wizard, and in the same incremental way it flies better.


I agree that more gyroscopic is good. I'm all for it. But there are many many many factors that determine how a disc flies, and the moment of inertia only really affects the rate of change in hyzer/anhyzer angle, along with numerous other factors.

Back to physics...

The rate of change of disc hyzer/anhyzer angle (i.e., rate of turn/fade, ) is the aerodynamical pitching moment/torque T divided by the angular momentum L. The angular momentum L is the product of the disc spin rate w and the moment of inertia I. In summary, the rate of change of hyzer/anhyzer angle is T/(I*w).

T is the product of the component of aerodynamical force parallel to the disc axis (basically, the lift force F_l) times the length of displacement of the center of lift/pressure from the exact center of the disc x. So, T=F_l*x. The lift force, F_l, is itself a function of air density and velocity, F_l=A_l*d*v*v (where A_l is the dimensional* lift coefficient, d is air density, and v is the air speed).

In summary, the rate of change of hyzer/anhyzer angle of a disc in flight is:
T/(I*w)=A_l*d*v*v*x/(I*w).

So let's look at this list of characteristics that change the disc's rate of hyzer/anhyzer in flight:

T/(I*w)=A_l*d*v*v*x/(I*w):
1) Lift coefficient, A_l, depends only on the radius R and shape of the disc, and is moderately sensitive to variations in runs/plastics for a given mold.
2) Air density, d, is most sensitive to altitude. Relative to sea level, air density drops by 10% at 1300 m altitude (4300'), and is diminished by 20% at 2500 m (8200'). Unlike moment of inertia, air density also proportionally affects other aspects of flight, such as the aerodynamic drag force that slows the disc (thus high altitude is not strictly analogous to higher moment of inertia).
3) Air speed, v, is imparted to the disc by the thrower, and is additionally affected by wind. Factors affecting air speed are a combination of grip, throwing mechanics, and weather. Air speed is dissipated by the aerodynamic drag force, which is given by F_d=A_d*d*v*v (where A_d is the dimensional* drag coefficient).
4) Displacement of center of lift/pressure, x, from the center of the disc depends on the air speed, angle of attack, and is extremely sensitive to disc shape. Variations in runs/plastics for a given mold can cause x to change it's value by more than 100%.
5) Moment of inertia, I, depends on the disc mass M, disc radius R, and distribution of mass between the flight plate and rim. It exhibits a moderate degree of variability, it is always greater than M*R*R/2 (corresponding to all mass in the flight plate), and it is always less than M*R*R (corresponding to all mass in the rim).
6) Spin rate, w, is imparted to the disc by the thrower. Factors affecting spin are a combination of grip and throwing mechanics. Spin rate is dissipated by the axial resistance torque, which is a poorly constrained function of spin rate. The rate of slowing of spin rate is inversely proportional to the disc moment of inertia.

This is a big list! It is not easy to isolate all of these factors without doing wind tunnel testing to measure the forces directly, although physics-based disc flight simulations can give some insight on how changes in each factor affect flight patterns and distance. Increasing the moment of inertia helps to stabilize a disc, but the powerful influence of slight variations in disc shape is also present. I suspect that slight variations in disc shape exerts a stronger influence on flights than moment of inertia. This view is informed by simulations that show only a very slight sensitivity in flight pattern and distance (all else being equal), and is additionally informed by the fact that every run of a disc, even if the shape differences are microscopic, has a dramatically different flight. Differences between 2 similar (but different) molds and molding processes are certain to be important, and cannot be neglected, particularly in comparison to weaker effects such a moment of inertia.

So there you have it. Take it or leave it (you can lead a horse to water...).

*The lift and drag coefficients are usually non-dimensionalized by the disc cross-sectional area, pi*R*R, however, this factor is absorbed into the coefficient here for the sake of brevity.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby jubuttib » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:02 am

Wouldn't it also affect how long and fast the disc will keep spinning? The difference is immense between rim-weighted butterfly yoyos and center-weighted imperial yoyos, with proper ball bearing it can be along the lines of a minute or two of spin time.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JR » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:05 am

jubuttib wrote:The Comet is hugely gyroscopic. It's a fairly deep profile disc, the flight plate isn't particularly thick and to the extent I can measure it with my calipers it's a whopping 4-5 mm bigger in diameter in Z and ESP than the Axis, even though according to the specs they both should be identical in diameter (they probably certified it when using a baseline plastic that had a lot of shrinkage). That's about the same difference as between normal small and large diameter discs. A large part of why large diameter discs fly so much more neutral than or at least have slower movements than smaller diameter mids is the bigger diameter, and the Comet is the largest diameter mid I've ever seen (apart from Condors and stuff like that). Of course the shape is the dominant factor, but the size is a major point too.


Hmm a girl i know said it's 90 % size and 10 % shape :-D
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby discspeed » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:17 am

jubuttib wrote:Wouldn't it also affect how long and fast the disc will keep spinning? The difference is immense between rim-weighted butterfly yoyos and center-weighted imperial yoyos, with proper ball bearing it can be along the lines of a minute or two of spin time.


My friend works for a skateboard company and he said that they gyroscopically weight skateboard wheels for the same reason.
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