The Myth of Disc Pivot

[Blake_T]

writeup postponed until tomorrow evening.

after tonight's lesson i'm onto something new and completely different...

results are positive so far.

[cubeofsoup]

you're such a tease with these postponed posts

[hegemony]

he's a regular John Cleese

[Blake_T]

So...

when it comes to arcs, that is a large part of what determines the max throwing power of your body positions.

It doesn't quite rectify timing, which is even more important than the shape of your arc.

Picture has been modified to match arc distances.



Think of the red line from the diagram as a "rail" that your hand follows on an average throw.
you trace out the rail, and depending upon other factors, the disc leaves at some point along the rail.

each rail has a "critical point," which usually sort of reflects the apex of the rail's arc (marked by a black dash). going back to the car analogy... if you enter the apex moving too fast, the "under-steer" is going to put you into the wall, aka a slip. your goal is to enter the apex "as fast as you can while still able to hold on" and accelerate rapidly out of the apex.

the curvature of the rail provides everything needed for the disc to leave the hand, it's more a matter of when.

the ideal pivot point, aka "how long you should hold onto the disc before it leaves" is approximated by the green dash.

anything released before the critical point is a slip. when it's close to the point it's a micro slip (this can be useful when you try to finesse a touch shot). holding on just past the critical point is a half hit. holding on all the way is a full hit.

i've diagrammed three rails. one is a good old average, sort of idealized rail. the blue circle represents the circle you would use to calculate the angular velocity of the disc as it is pulled beyond the critical point.

as for why masterbeato throws so far, he reaches certain body positions that change the shape of the arc, and as a result, increases the radius of the circle. the abrupt directional change in his rail represents the starting point for the right pec drill (if you're wondering why i ever taught that in the first place).

the last diagram shows a "shoulder spinner." people that twirl their body around without ever achieving a focal hit point. while the radius of their circle may be large... they usually enter with so much speed they have no prayer of holding onto the disc beyond the critical point along the rail. the result is a slip on every throw.

the new method i'm working on is teaching people how to develop a good pace through the rail and manipulate its shape to give a maximum throw.

having a good pace dominates the shape. the shape only matters when you have a good pace.

[JR]

I can't usually hold onto the disc into full hit zone because i've tried shoulder spinning and average/good forms and often slip out at arc critical point already. A clear need to add more fingers and more lock finger strength.

[Blake_T]

Jr: try making the radius of your arc smaller. Aka dont let your elbow straighten all the way before changing directions. That should reduce the inertia pull / g force the disc exerts on your grip.


I also forgot to write why this is the key of this thread... If you try to allow the disc to swing freely through the pivot you will never be able to hold onto it all the way to the full hit zone.


I am currently working on a way of teaching this, which is more difficult than just showing what it is.

I can say that being able to keep the disc's weight under control is an absolute necessity and so the hammer drills still apply. The difference with this tech is that there's no forcing of the wrist extension.

[JR]

I think you did write about not allowing the lock fingers to be too loose to allow the disc pivot freely forward (meaning too early decreasing the late acceleration) and grip strength required to get from the critical point of the arc to the half then full hit portion of the arm swing with the disc still in the hand. Just not in those exact words.

The arc shortening will be the next step for me after i've maximized grip strength by adding to the pressure of lock fingers. There is room for improvement there. There is a contradictory training issue in learning full hitting with thin winged discs and the exact same discs suffering more from sticking fingers than drivers. I was able to add to grip strength lately with the Jenkins way of placing the thumb but added stress from that and adding to training amounts to harder than in a quarter of a century led to tendonitis so it'll be a while before i can advance in this.

By the way i have tried reaching back the Voigt way=away from the body in the reach back and close to the right pec. Like the rail for Dan shows. That alone didn't help because the grip slip outs. Even when i got the elbow forward. I did try to extend the elbow fully and starting turning the shoulders prior to the elbow chops to no difference. It seems that the grip is the limiting factor for both but i can't confirm that until i've healed and improve the grip strength to eliminate that possibility.

I'll get back to this thread after i've either had results or not have after added grip strength and shoulder turning/elbow chop timing adjustment. What kind of relative timing do you recommend for starting the shoulder turn vs the elbow chop movement range? And did i interpret the shortening of the radius correctly as needing to turn the shoulders prior to the elbow straightening fully? To compensate for the lacking grip strength.

Changing directions hmm? Doesn't that mean that the disc is moving back to front and the arm is moving left to right and eventually back in an arc so the actual pinch strength requirement for holding on is actually increasing from a faster to the side movement trying to separate the finger from the disc? No news there because i do try to hold on and get the direction change as it is. So in theory the shortened arc radius helps in reducing the required strength by making the lever of the smaller diameter arc shorter but doesn't it also lose out some of the benefits to lesser pinch power need to the earlier directional change acceleration converted to sideways speed to the side pulling the fingers into other direction than the aiming line? At a higher speed due to longer off aiming line acceleration time? Even if the Gs may be the same or lower due to the longer acceleration time i'd think that the resulting velocity to the side would increase the grip strength need for lesser benefits. Oh well that's theory i need to test it out in practice. With high speed camera to see that i'm doing things right and monitoring when the disc slips/rips out and how much it has pivoted.

High speed video compared to the no hit/half hit/full hit continuum picture and at which clock facing the disc separates from the fingers would point out immediately to the thrower how long and well they held on. And if you use a disc that shows the amount of degrees the disc spins during the pivot so well that it is easy to follow in the video you'd be set. You could show the thrower immediately what they did and where they are lacking.

[Blake_T]

If you want to hold on longer you have 3 contributing factors:
1. The speed with which you approach the critical point. Slower = easier to hang on.
2. The abruptness of the directional change. Less abrupt = smaller arc radius = easier to hold on.
3. Grip strength.

Holding on from the critical point to the ideal release point has some tricks to it. The "key turn" of the wrist to the forward/down position helps hang on without adding grip pressure (it changes the ergonomics).


Keep in mind the arm itself has to rotate in order to follow the rail.

Again, i dont really know why hi speed video is needed since i can see it on a full speed throw. In 9 out of 10 cases the ability to hold on is due to the entry speed while approaching the critical point.

[JR]

Can you see the rip point in your own throws? I bet none of the throwers do themselves. If they were able to see it immediately after the throw for themselves that would give clear as day feedback to where they are now. It has been said that you need to change form in order to throw farther not drill the old form ad nauseum. Looking at the writing on the wall and seeing the differences between differing forms confirms to the thrower the differences between forms motivating them to switch form or keep on changing things until they get to where they need to go. Motivating the change and pushing the changes is the key because people don't wanna change easily.

Yeah i didn't account for the abruptness in my thinking you're right. I've slowed down for approaches already and gotten an added bonus from that. Now that the arm swing lasts longer there is more time for the brain to work and the result of muscle training carried over to a faster arm chop. So i'm getting more plyometrics in the arm aiding in the mechanical feedback of the disc to the fingers pressure increase. also aiding in distance on good days. I've picked up 25-30' with old mids this season and adding the long Coyote pushed my mid D to where i was at with tweeners last year. All from the late acceleration. I think that helps me to hold on later getting a fuller if not a full hit. Coyote 347' max on a line drive Comet 340' line drive no flip from flat release and Buzzz Z to 330' -that is rare. Last year my Buzzz record was 30low i think.

[Blake_T]

Can you see the rip point in your own throws? I bet none of the throwers do themselves. If they were able to see it immediately after the throw for themselves that would give clear as day feedback to where they are now.

yes. what i've found is that it doesn't really matter... the launch speed and nose angle reflect this right away as well.

the method i'm working on teaching right now involves no chop, just moving the hand along the arc at low speeds with minimal shoulder rotation.

have only worked with students on a handful of throws so far, but one of them was able to stationary throw a gazelle 425' while doing it.

i mainly posted dan's arc in order to explain why he throws so fast/far (65mph+ launch speeds). the timing and flow of his rail is very difficult to duplicate and requires a tremendous amount of hand strength to hang onto the disc while throwing with that arc shape.

[Blake_T]

i will try to add the disc and arm to the diagrams later.

[soupdeluxe]

Hey Blake
This is very interesting. I like how you tied the inability to hang on with a loose pivot to the ideal or even close to the ideal release point. Bottom line is my discs are leaving early due to a loose pivot as well as too fast too early. I find that when field practicing my first 20 min or so are garbage. I am to jacked up, for lack of a better word and, try to throw too hard. Once I settle down I get better at everything. It would be fun to see throws of people looking down instead of just side and back views. It might be much easier to diagnose issues for the untrained eye like mine. Thanks again
SD
PS When compairing myself to the three diagrams I don't like what I see. I'm have a triple major: shoulder turning and early acceleration and loose pivot.

[soupdeluxe]

Im back
Just had to go out and try out something that stood out loud to me in the diagrams. MB moving the disc on a straight line not directly across his chest but from outside to inside to the power pocket. This creates that 90 degree abrupt change in direction at the chop. My thow I would imagine would be round. Anyhow I tried this and had good success throwing long and was able to feel it better. Does this method punish less for early shoulder turn than straight across the nipples? It does not forgive early speed. This varies a bit from what I was doing. I was throwing using Brads shoulder drill were you stand closed and bring it into the pocket. Prob with this is I can't get my leg or hip cleared. By bringing it in MB style I can stand more open and clear my leg better as well. One last question, is MBs arc extra elongated due to his forward motion or would his stand still look like this also? Thanks
SD

[Blake_T]

Sd: it actually punishes worse for early shoulder but makes it easier to correct early shoulder as well.

He basically does his first turn and gets the disc to the pocket when his right shoulder is almost pointing at the target. Reaching that point gives a natural pause point for the shoulder turn

As for his arc length, i just didnt draw equal weight forward arm extension. However, even if i did draw it to scale his circle is still larger.

[JR]

Can you see the rip point in your own throws? I bet none of the throwers do themselves. If they were able to see it immediately after the throw for themselves that would give clear as day feedback to where they are now.

yes. what i've found is that it doesn't really matter... the launch speed and nose angle reflect this right away as well.

the method i'm working on teaching right now involves no chop, just moving the hand along the arc at low speeds with minimal shoulder rotation.

have only worked with students on a handful of throws so far, but one of them was able to stationary throw a gazelle 425' while doing it.

i mainly posted dan's arc in order to explain why he throws so fast/far (65mph+ launch speeds). the timing and flow of his rail is very difficult to duplicate and requires a tremendous amount of hand strength to hang onto the disc while throwing with that arc shape.

That is all fine and dandy for those who are accustomed to it. An inexperienced learner might recognize slips to the left and that's it. People don't recognize different speeds that well unless the difference is massive so it ain't a good enough training tool. Radar would help there. Most developing players have nose angle trouble too so it ain't gonna show them what they need. There is a clear reason for immediate high speed video feedback in training in all sports. I spoke to the Finnish representative of Dartfish and he said there aren't any sports where their system hasn't improved form and results where the system has been applied. He's trained several Finnish Olympic athletes. Medal winning ones too who changed technique and improved personal records as a result.

That slow moving is always a good idea and 425' anything from a stand still is excellent indeed! I lack the necessary hand strength and health obviously to duplicate what Dan does. Out to in motion to the right pec position didn't lose me anything. Early shoulders or late last year. For me hyzer flips from steeper angles were easier with out to in arm rail than close to both pecs but flat and annied shots are equal or slightly easier with close to both pecs. I've kept on throwing approach drives with close to both pecs pulls even when i used out to in with distance shots. Better consistency across slippery vs dry tees with close to both pecs shots.